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";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:110:"Do The Woo Community: Open Source Sustainability, Contributing and Proposal Processes with Courtney and Robert";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"https://dothewoo.io/?p=84957";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:74:"https://dothewoo.io/os-sustainability-contributing-and-proposal-processes/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:35658:"Episode Transcript
<div class="wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained">
<p>Courtney:<br />How are you, Robert? How&#8217;s your summer going?</p>



<p>Robert:<br />It&#8217;s still summer? I don&#8217;t know. It&#8217;s been so hot. We were just talking about that in the green room, how the temperature&#8217;s been nuts.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />Yes, yes, yes. Robert and I, being in America, our weather has been very weird. I&#8217;ve been having a lot of Florida weather here in South Central Pennsylvania, which I would like to send back to Florida and now that would be delightful. But the weather in Europe was pretty cool at WordCamp Europe. I liked that temperature better.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Everything is cool when you&#8217;re in Torino.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />This is true. So today we&#8217;re going to get into a little bit of some of the talks that we saw at WordCamp Europe, some of the other open-source connections that were made during this event, and a little bit of pulse on the community as to what we&#8217;ve seen going on in open source. Most recently we&#8217;re just on the heels at the time of this recording of seeing WordPress 6.6.1 ship, which is great. But that said, Robert, how did you spend your WordCamp Europe and what stood out most to you?</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Wow, attendance. I mean, I&#8217;m just going to go with that. So WordCamp Europe was talk, talk, talk, work, work, work, network, network, network.<br />We had a booth there for Botguard and had to do some of that. But yeah, it always amazes me how full of people WordCamp Europe is and it was really great to see some of, even I&#8217;ll call &#8217;em micro-communities, get together. I know there was a large contingent from Serbia that was doing their thing, and then you&#8217;d have folks from the Netherlands and Germany and getting that face time that they may not get during the rest of the year. So it&#8217;s always the people and the networking and energy that leaves me smiling for at least six months. Hoarse completely, but definitely smiling.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />I saw that there was also a sub-community of the Jonathans getting photos together. Were there any photos of the Roberts? Because I think you and Mr. Dunn here could both be in that photo.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />And Robert Windisch.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />Yeah, see, I was just hanging out with him in Canada the other week. That&#8217;s right. Yeah, the Roberts need to do a photo. I&#8217;m going to petition for that.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />And we will also include Robbie Adair.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />Yes, yes, absolutely. Include all those that have Rob, Bob or some variation of that related to their names for sure. So WordCamp Europe kicked off with a really amazing talk. We heard first as our opening keynote at WordCamp Europe about the sustainability of open source being the future, and this was something that was shared by both Joost and Juliet who gave a presentation on this. Joost, of course, being the founder of a very well-known SEO plugin company, and Juliet is really well-known in the PHP space, but not a lot of people in WordPress outside of those that pay attention to PHP know Juliet yet. Juliet is an amazing, amazing woman, very talented dev, and somebody that I got to know during Europe quite a lot. And so during that time that she and Joost gave that presentation, they were sharing a great deal about how much of what we use or do on a daily basis depends on open source and how people are often unaware of that implication.</p>



<p>And that&#8217;s something that&#8217;s been eye-opening to me, not just from their talk, but also over the last couple of years as I tune into the automotive industry using a lot of open-source technology. Of course, I work for a web host and I know that our servers use a lot of open-source technology to power the hosting environments as well, but there&#8217;s a lot more to open source to learn about that I think we don&#8217;t often see. So they were sharing some of the use cases of that, but they were also really great at helping shed light on. Open source is never free, so you&#8217;ve got either funding to pay people or the time that people give up for their families and their jobs and these other things to make open source possible. So I thought that they really landed that conversation fantastically well, and it&#8217;s something that I believe that the WordPress community especially needs to tune in on. You haven&#8217;t gotten a chance yet, go watch the replay on that one.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Yeah, I think hopefully Bob can drop that into the transcript of the actual link. Yeah, free and open source are always fun words to mess up. And yes, the code may be freely accessible, but how do you put it together? Who&#8217;s put that together? Coming from the Joomla community, which is a hundred percent volunteer where there is no corporate support in any way, shape or form, the burnout is extreme because you just can&#8217;t do that all the time.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />Yeah, knowing what I do of Juliet, I feel fine in sharing this. Just a few months back, about half a year, maybe a little bit longer ago now, we saw PHPCS, which is the PHP coding standards. Juliet is unarguably the lead dev on this. There are several other contributors to this. That project sat in an abandoned repo and abandoned being that there was a company that created this as an open-source project. The company shuttered and Juliet did not have administrative rights over that area and nobody that did was still contributing. Juliet has been funded through contract work as have others to that area, but it was not at a sustainable level for the amount of contribution needed for that. And I highlight it because WordPress uses WPCS, the WordPress coding standards, and those areas in particular also need to depend upon the PHPCS. So it&#8217;s just a set of rules basically that make sure that how we&#8217;re writing not just our PHP, but I believe it also applies to HTML and CSS, that these things adhere to specific standards so that we have some security reliability in all of the code that we&#8217;re deploying.</p>



<p>If any one of those areas were to fail, that could jeopardize not just WordPress, but also at PHPCS, it would impact many other open-source projects and some that are not, that depend upon PHPCS. And then within WordPress, not only does it impact core, but WPCS that depends on PHPCS also impacts many plugins. Hosts use it as part of securing their environments for managed environments for customers. So there was a lot really dependent on that, and Juliet&#8217;s just been through quite a lot in the past year securing the funding needed, not just for herself, but also the couple of other devs that are working on this. And it&#8217;s one of those backbones of the internet, so I can&#8217;t say enough about the work that she&#8217;s doing. And also, Joost wrote a fantastic piece that helped get at least my executives to participate in funding the work inside of PHPCS as well to make sure that our customers are really well protected. So please do tune in, watch, see what&#8217;s going on. Even if you don&#8217;t really understand code, not the point, it&#8217;s knowing that it&#8217;s securing you here.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Well, it&#8217;s to your point about validating the stuff that WordPress utilizes from plugins to things to Gutenberg to all that. Of course, my favorite is having the tabs versus spaces argument, so that&#8217;s something else as well. But for those who are not technical, just think of tabs versus spaces.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />I just got into the conversation at WordCamp Canada about pineapple and pizza. Now you&#8217;re bringing up tabs versus spaces. We&#8217;re going to start a riot with the devs. They&#8217;re all groaning at us right now, Robert. I can hear them. So in addition to that, there were a couple of other really cool things that took place during WordCamp Europe. One of the first things was that right after Joost and Juliet&#8217;s presentation during the Q&amp;A, I asked a question, and then out of that came meeting Matthias from Typo3. Typo3 is one of the organizations that participated in the open source letter to the WordPress European Union related to the Cyber Resiliency Act. What does all that mean? Basically, the European Union has a lot of standards that they&#8217;re trying to implement, and the Cyber Resiliency Act specifies a lot of what they expect out of the software being used in various environments, and some of the wording that is in the Cyber Resiliency Act was not suitable for how open source works. And so out of that came, that&#8217;s exactly it. Joomla, Drupal, Typo3, WordPress and a few others that I think all compiled a letter together to the European Union specifying some of these things and Matthias that we met is part of the community at Typo3. Robert, did you get a chance to meet Matthias?</p>



<p>Robert:<br />We got, of course, everyone got to meet everyone at some point, but we&#8217;re definitely going to push to have, is it Matthias or Mattias? I&#8217;m not always going to look Matthias.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />I&#8217;m an American and I butcher European names routinely. I will apologize first, but yes, we should invite him on as a guest and ask him to pronounce his own name for us.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />At least that, I mean, it&#8217;ll be a very quick podcast.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />Yep, absolutely.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />That&#8217;ll be brilliant. But yeah, I mean not only, it&#8217;s great that he was part of that open letter, but it&#8217;s interesting how, since we&#8217;re on the open talk on open source, how open source gets attacked in different weird ways and the Cyber Resilience Act, which is called CRA before we get all tongue-tied, it just seems strange to make demands of free code and why, yes, there need to be cybersecurity standards, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, last I checked, we can talk about CrowdStrike all day long and they&#8217;re probably CRA compliant, and that doesn&#8217;t really help anyone when Delta is</p>



<p>still down for day five or six of being able to fly. The NHS, I think, had problems. European banks had problems. So some of these rules and regulations really don&#8217;t actually get to the crux of the problem, which is everyone needs to do their homework and stay on top of code no matter what it is and have processes in place.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />Absolutely, Robert, I am glad that neither of us were traveling during that in particular.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Oh my goodness, are you kidding? I just got home from WordCamp Canada to which I drove. It was a long drive, but I drove because the distance would not have been any different time-wise if I had flown. But still, I am glad to have gotten through Border Crossing and all of that without having an impact there. Related though to your idea there on testing and kind of coming in on the heels of WordPress 6.6.1 coming out and the calls for testing, I will amplify that people should be testing things and to the point where I have been relentless with my employer about giving me a little sliver of an environment to test on production. So in our managed environments and our enterprise-managed environments, I am ensuring that this gets at least the minimum testing possible. But in addition to that, I would like to call in those that are in the plugin and theme space and make sure that you are testing with the beta releases before we even hit RC. We need to be testing at the beta releases.</p>



<p>So not just a good way to do this in the WordPress space as you go to make WordPress dot org slash test, and usually with every release there is a guideline post saying, here&#8217;s how you could go test the thing, do that, but in addition, do some other testing, both automated and manual with your own plugins and or themes. If you are a dev and or if you&#8217;re managing client sites, the ones that are the most on most of your client sites, I would make sure to also as a user, test those ahead because things will go a little sideways and you might see a maintenance release come in pretty quickly after that. If you are in other parts of open source, the same would still apply. You absolutely should be paying attention to what&#8217;s going on in releases ahead of time and testing and weighing that kind of feedback.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />I&#8217;ll just second that, and it all circles back to the sustainability argument or discussion earlier. These things need to be done. Yes.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />I will give a quick nod. When I was assembling today&#8217;s show notes, I forgot to include that I was on a panel at Europe about open source, about funding open source from the perspective, this time last year, I spoke with Hari and I was on a panel there from the perspective of I&#8217;m a contributor that wants to get sponsored. What can I do this time? It was from the perspective of empowering organizations such as my employer or Robert&#8217;s employer or a number of others to fund the work of open source. So I will be sure to include those as well. That slipped my mind in today&#8217;s show notes, but there we go. Related to other events and things going on in the open-source space. Robert, you brought up All Things Open. Do you know much about this conference? Have you ever attended?</p>



<p>Robert:<br />I have never. And it keeps getting put into time slots where I can&#8217;t make it. It&#8217;s really about open source and everything from GitHub and Copilot to specific projects. Of course, AI, I already mentioned Copilot. That kind of stuff is happening. Speakers have been announced, and I&#8217;m just looking at, so we got Community Leadership Summit and All Things Open on October 27th.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />Yes, that is close to some timelines for my kiddos that I don&#8217;t know if I&#8217;ll be able to go yet or not, but I know a few others in the WordPress community that have attended in the past. You can reach out if you&#8217;re interested to Adam Silver and Nyasha Greene and find out what their experiences have been at this event. But it is really operated like a true open source without an organization besides the conference organizers, this is not an event on behalf of any one open-source project. It is an open-source event of lots of open-source people just getting together, and it&#8217;s one that I think is really, really interesting. It is in, is it North or South Carolina in the Carolinas?</p>



<p>Robert:<br />It&#8217;s Raleigh, North Carolina.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />Raleigh, North Carolina, yeah. There we go. So if you&#8217;re interested in attending that one, do jump in, check it out, get some tickets. I always love the graphics that organization puts forward. I think it&#8217;d be a good time to also learn and connect with others.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />I have been to the Community Leadership Summit in the past, and if you are heavily involved in a project, you should really have this on your radar. I remember having attended, and at the time it was all about codes of conduct and you had folks from all these projects trying to put together codes of conduct, codes of conduct or code of conducts, I dunno where the S goes.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />Or the apostrophe.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Or the, oh no, don&#8217;t make it worse. But these are the kinds of things that are addressed to help projects move forward. So definitely take a look at that if you are spending considerable time in any specific project, and that ties right into All Things Open.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />Yeah, I would absolutely agree with that one. There are a couple of other things that have been popping on my radar just in the last week related to open source that are pretty interesting to check out. One of them started. So our show is not just about WordPress, but obviously we&#8217;re heavily steeped in the WordPress community and Do the Woo is related very much to all things WordPress related. I think they even have a show by that name. So a couple things that kind of popped up for me. I was watching a YouTube live with Matt Medeiros and Mark Szymanski, forgive me for not knowing how to pronounce your last name, but during this one, it&#8217;s great to see from Mark&#8217;s eyes sometimes because Mark is a young adult in his twenties, I believe, in the WordPress community and beginning to understand open source and contribution.</p>



<p>And I think that when I think about myself at that point, I was finding WordPress 2.3 and Moodle. So I come from other open source, and at that I found the WordPress philosophies and I thought, oh, this is for me, the ones numbered zero through three, the four philosophies of open source, that area spoke deeply to me about code being free, everyone can modify and edit and all of this and has really captivated me. I don&#8217;t know if today with as much software as is available and as much user experience as people can have at their fingertips. At that time, CMSs were new and WordPress WordPress was just for blogging and not for the rest of your website certainly. And there were no pages or sidebars or any of those things. So back then open source had a lot of potential and it really captivated a lot of interest.</p>



<p>These days though, the 20 something crowd is not necessarily thinking first about open source. They&#8217;re just thinking of the tool to get the job done. Open source may or may not be on the radar, and if they even are aware of how WordPress gets made, they may not understand their own responsibility for providing feedback. There is a talk I gave at WordCamp Montclair a year and a half ago, and I redid it at Phoenix as a backup speaker this year called We Are They, and it&#8217;s on WordPress TV, but it&#8217;s about this idea that if you&#8217;re using WordPress and you complain into the ether about why did they do this or that, to go log the issue in the place and provide that feedback. And there have been a few YouTubers in the last couple of days even that we&#8217;re really looking into one shedding light on the need to do that, but also two, hey, we&#8217;re logging this stuff and it&#8217;s maybe getting overlooked. And so there was some confusion around this that I thought maybe we could tackle a little bit. Robert, has there been a time in any open-source project where you have directed others to go provide some feedback? And how did that experience go?</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Oh gosh, it&#8217;s brutally painful.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />Why is that painful?</p>



<p>Robert:<br />It&#8217;s painful. People are not inspired. They don&#8217;t know. A lot of times the feedback loops aren&#8217;t there. So you might go in there the first time, drop a ticket, look at a repo and either be overwhelmed by whatever jargon exists, and then it just goes into the ether. Nine times out of 10, you&#8217;re waiting for someone to pick up that question, actually do something with that. To your point about Juliet, how many years was that sitting there? Again,</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />It was a long time and it came down to I&#8217;m quitting doing this, I need to go pick up client work. Or you&#8217;re giving me the keys and we got to move it and I need funded. And I get that.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />And so as folks get used to much more, I don&#8217;t want to say immediate gratification, but at least some kind of awareness of what&#8217;s going on. Open-source projects need to implement the expectation level of, oh, I hit a button at my bank and I got an immediate response either from a chatbot or a human being or whatever. We need to be able to do that. We need to keep up with the Joneses in that kind of user experience because submitting tickets is a user experience.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />Yeah, so in the presentation that I did, if your issue was related to Gutenberg, here&#8217;s the Gutenberg repo, you could leave a comment and not provide code, and that&#8217;s okay. So if you want to either open up a discussion or reply to something, here&#8217;s how to go find and see if anyone else brought the topic up and then how to go provide feedback or how to open a new ticket. If it is related to the functionality of WordPress dot org&#8217;s website, where to go log that, that&#8217;s another place. And so the experience Mark was sharing is that he seems interested, I&#8217;m just getting to know him a little bit. He seems interested in doing these things, but he doesn&#8217;t know where to go to do it. And there&#8217;s not really a clear map of some of those things, how to log the feedback in the right places.</p>



<p>And then you have someone like Matt Medeiros who very understandably has been in our community in the WordPress space a long time. And in our project we have two dozen different teams, and then we have some working groups that aren&#8217;t attached to a team and we, oh, it&#8217;s a thing. And so how do you find where to go log this stuff or where are, for instance, proposals, that was something that Matt brought up and was sharing about searching through make WordPress dot org for proposals. I have provided a link for the show notes that&#8217;s basically just a customized Google search of show me anything on make dot WordPress dot org from all two dozen teams in the past. I dunno, I might&#8217;ve set it to a year that used the word proposal because there&#8217;s no other clear way to do that. But then over in Gutenberg, there are also proposals sitting inside of Gutenberg&#8217;s GitHub repo, and they don&#8217;t make it to a make website. And sometimes that&#8217;s the case for certain teams. Gutenberg is within core, but if you want to see the proposals about what the block editor is doing or the site editing experience is doing, you&#8217;re going to need to pay attention to it in the Gutenberg repo. And then what happens if you write a proposal? What&#8217;s the next step?</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Yes, that is a question.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />I&#8217;m shaking my hands, which no one can see. We&#8217;re audio-only. But it&#8217;s just like that both hands in the air of frustration of, again, the user experience of trying to get stuff done.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />So Robert in Joomla, how did proposals get handled?</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />To some degree, it was a much smaller community and we didn&#8217;t have 4,000 teams like WordPress does. So it was much easier to actually get in front of team leads just right off the bat and be like, here&#8217;s my proposal, here&#8217;s my idea. Then team leads would take and run with that. So being able just to have that contact with the leader of what&#8217;s going on, then that would be actually put into more of the big development process or bug fixes or proposals and whatnot.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />So to that point, in WordPress, we do not use the term lead outside of, we have core release leads. Matt, usually, is that on most of the release processes.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Matt Mullenweg. There&#8217;s lots of Matts in the world.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />Yes. And then we have some folks that historically have held this title and it&#8217;s now become more of an honorary title. Folks like if you&#8217;ve been in the WordPress space, Helen Hou-Sandí and others, Dion Hulse, this crew are some of the originals of the release lead cycle and process. Some of them are still with the project and some are no longer with the project, but proposals overall across all the teams, there is no uniformity to that in our case. Other open source projects, like for instance later in the show notes, I have one on PHP has a request for comments, which is a bit akin to a proposal. It&#8217;s saying, here&#8217;s the pitch, give some comments, and then they have a defined procedure after you give those comments if it needs to go to a vote, who does the voting, et cetera. And these are points that Mark was bringing up.<br />Is there any standardized? What happens after someone writes a proposal? Well, sometimes it just sits there. Earlier today I had a meeting related to, there is a post in our show notes here about should the DEIB working group Five for the Future new contributor mentorship be all merged inside of the sustainability team? And it was brought up that Birgit Olzem had written a proposal for a DEIB team exclusively like a year ago. And right now it&#8217;s just waiting on Matt to respond to one way or the other. And for lack of a response, there&#8217;s a lack of activity happening. And that experience for the community is not ideal. There&#8217;s no standardization to the process. And also are the proposals going to be on make or are they going to be in a GitHub repo or what team site should something like that go to and how do we handle those?</p>



<p>So I think it was covered pretty well in this particular video, but I can understand why people have these questions. And I&#8217;m seeing currently a couple of other YouTubers that are expressing similar concerns, similar questions, and confusion. And what I want to sort of emphasize there is to look at it again, with fresh eyes, there are some people that are new to understanding contribution no matter what their age, they&#8217;re just new to experiencing what it means to contribute or where to provide appropriate feedback besides just yelling into YouTube and Twitter. I mean, those feel soothing for a moment or two, but it does nothing to actually, it&#8217;s not recorded somewhere that people could take action on that, right? It&#8217;s not somewhere that people have to be confronted with dealing with that type of thing and seeing a bit of that type of activity going on.</p>



<p>And also there are some questions. So WPTuts, on YouTube, I don&#8217;t recall the gentleman&#8217;s name. I can say that the gentleman that was doing WPTuts the YouTube video also had a lot of those same kind of thoughts, questions, and concerns. If I provide the feedback, is anyone paying attention? I saw recently a contributor Aurooba, a couple of us know who Aurooba is in our community. Aurooba provided a pull request, which means that she fixed it in code, she saw a bug, she fixed it in code, she submitted a pull request to Gutenberg, and then in 6.6, that bug was fixed by somebody else&#8217;s more recent rendition of the same solution and how inappropriate that that can feel and what can we do to sort of wrangle some of those experiences in a bit better. And so that&#8217;s a little bit of what I&#8217;m observing, and it relates a bit to, for instance, governance.</p>



<p>That has sometimes been a hot topic. I&#8217;m not going to make it one today, but Red Hat has a really good article, ironically, Red Hat who took Red Hat Enterprise Linux that runs a lot of hosting environments and pulled it back to private. Red Hat has a good article about the different kinds of governance models. And on some of the same videos, people were inquiring what type of governance model is WordPress because things like proposals have no standardization, and we do fall under what&#8217;s known as Benevolent Dictator for Life. Matt does not enjoy that term, but it is not unique to WordPress.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Linux in general is, I mean, Linus Torvaldsds, that&#8217;s where it was born.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />Yes, exactly. And so basically a lot of the decision-making process resides upon the Project co-founder at this time, and that&#8217;s why procedures are maybe where they are looking for a way forward. I&#8217;m going to keep pushing on looking for how we can improve this process. I recognize that our project leadership is a small crew that has a lot of responsibility, especially when 43% of the web rides on their decision-making. So improving that experience is something that I care deeply about, about how we can continue encouraging folks to come provide that feedback, and then ensuring that things like what Aurooba experienced don&#8217;t fall off the radar that we continually look for, oh, here&#8217;s somebody actually already solved the thing, or somebody provided some really valuable feedback. How do we get this feedback heard by those that need to and take action upon it? It&#8217;s a lot to kind of wrangle and deal with.</p>



<p>And I admire recently that Anne McCarthy organized a bunch of the YouTubers that seem to have similar interests like this together for a video to try and unite the YouTuber community because that is a weird niche. I would say they&#8217;re not going to be as much active in Make WordPress Slack, although I&#8217;ve seen more of that and I&#8217;m delighted by it. But they have a whole subset of the community that we don&#8217;t see at events. They have a whole subset of the community that we don&#8217;t see in Slack, and they can really help bridge those connections if done correctly.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Yes, I mean, I would just love to have every you dropped &#8217;em in, but just now. But really, if you&#8217;re interested in working on the project in WordPress, step one, make WordPress, get on that Slack. A lot of these questions when I talked about, or when you asked about how was this kind of feedback done in the Joomla space, and this is years ago. I&#8217;m sure it&#8217;s changed now, but at least get on the Slack. You can find the leaders and have that direct question answered one way or the other. And it would be nice if every team had almost like a triage coordinator, just to Courtney&#8217;s eyes just really big.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />I&#8217;m nodding. I&#8217;m thinking, oh, I would love to see project manager layers throughout.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />I&#8217;m just going for triage. You&#8217;re required to get back within 30 to 60 days and flag it for yes, this will move forward, or no, don&#8217;t have time.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />I think in addition, maybe Robert, we do have triage work that happens, especially for Core Editor. I know Damon Cook has been really working on that one. Damon contributes on behalf of WP Engine. There are a few others that are in that space for sure. But also I think that we need to do that holistically throughout the whole project. Last bit of news that I have coming in is that just issued within the past week</p>



<p>, is the state of React informal report about the React community. About React, the open-source project as well. It is part of the JavaScript community holistically. It&#8217;s a lot of what Gutenberg is built on. You can</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Check out. I was going to say, why do we care about React?</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />Yes, Gutenberg. Gutenberg uses a lot of React. So you could find that information at 2023 dot state of react.com. It will be in the show notes, but it&#8217;s really interesting to look at contributors to the React community and what kind of feedback that they are offering too. So that&#8217;s the hit list of the news that I&#8217;ve got for this week. It was good seeing you, Robert, and I look forward to our next episode together.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Great seeing you again, Courtney. Now that we have at least August, I think minimal to no work, travel break before WordCamp US hits us square in the face.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />I know I&#8217;m the lead organizer for contributor day, so I will have a lot more brainpower in October during Hacktoberfest.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Thank you, Courtney.</p>



<p>Courtney:<br />Thank you, Robert.</p>
</div>




<p>In this episode of <strong>Open Talk on Open Source</strong>, hosts <strong>Courtney and Robert </strong>recap their experiences at WordCamp Europe, highlighting key presentations on the future sustainability of open source by Joost and Juliet. </p>



<p>They have a conversation about the importance of community connections, the challenges in WordPress contributions, and the necessity of funding and supporting open source projects. The chats moves into the significance of testing, the complexities of governance, and the pivotal role of the WordPress community in fostering collaboration and innovation. Links</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Takeaways</h2>



<p><strong>WordCamp Europe Recap</strong>: Courtney and Robert reflect on their experiences and memorable moments from WordCamp Europe, emphasizing the importance of such events for community building and networking.</p>



<p><strong>Open Source Sustainability</strong>: Joost and Juliet&#8217;s presentation highlighted the critical role of open source in daily technology use and the need for sustainable funding and support for these projects.</p>



<p><strong>Challenges in Contributions</strong>: The discussion addressed the difficulties contributors face, including the lack of clear pathways for providing feedback and the need for better support and recognition for volunteer efforts.</p>



<p><strong>Importance of Testing</strong>: Both speakers stressed the necessity of thorough testing, especially with beta releases, to ensure the stability and security of WordPress and other open source projects.</p>



<p><strong>Governance and Decision-Making</strong>: The episode explored the complexities of governance in open source projects, particularly the role of project leaders and the need for more standardized processes for handling proposals and feedback.</p>



<p><strong>Funding and Support</strong>: The conversation underscored the importance of securing funding for open source development and the need for organizations to support contributors financially.</p>



<p><strong>Empowering New Contributors:</strong> There was a focus on encouraging new contributors to get involved, providing them with the necessary guidance and support to navigate the contribution process effectively.</p>



<p><strong>Future of Open Source</strong>: The episode wraps with a look at the future of open source, emphasizing the ongoing need for collaboration, innovation, and community support to drive progress and sustainability.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Links</h3>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong><a href="https://wordpress.tv/2024/07/03/keynote-sustainable-open-source-is-the-future/">Sustainable Open Source is the Future, Joost de Valk and Juliette Reinders Folmer, WordCamp Europe 2024</a></strong></li>



<li><strong><a href="https://wordpress.tv/2024/07/03/panel-democratising-opportunities/">Panel at WordCamp Europe 2024: Democratising Opportunities</a></strong></li>



<li><strong><a href="https://typo3.org/project/press/press-releases/open-website-alliance/english">Drupal, Joomla, TYPO3, and WordPress join forces in a leadership-level alliance</a></strong></li>



<li><strong><a href="https://academind.com/tutorials/state-of-react-2024">State of the React 2024</a></strong></li>



<li><strong><a href="https://allthingsopen.org/">All Things Open</a></strong></li>



<li><strong><a href="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3nYye07EPlI">Matt and Mark on WordPress</a></strong></li>



<li><strong><a href="https://typo3.org/fileadmin/t3o_common_storage/documents/press_releases/2023-07_Open_Letter_to_EU_Legislators/Open_Letter_on_the_Significance_of_Free_and_Open_Source_Software_in_the_EU_s_Proposed_Cyber_Resilience_Act.pdf">Open Letter on the Significance of Free and Open Source Software<br />in the EU’s Proposed Cyber Resilience Act</a></strong></li>
</ul>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Thu, 01 Aug 2024 09:30:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:1;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:67:"Gravatar: Better Links, Simple Messaging, Developer Tools, and More";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:32:"http://blog.gravatar.com/?p=1976";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:92:"https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/07/31/better-links-simple-messaging-developer-tools-and-more/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5967:"<p>July&#8217;s been a whirlwind, and we&#8217;ve got some exciting updates to share. We&#8217;ve been working hard to make your profile for the web shine even brighter.</p>



<p>Let&#8217;s dive in!</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Links That Pop</h2>



<img tabindex="0" width="2800" height="1720" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/image-3.png" alt="" class="wp-image-1990" />



<p>Your Gravatar profile is evolving into the ultimate Link In Bio tool. Now you can add thumbnails and descriptions to your links, turning your profile into a dynamic showcase. </p>



<p>Show off your latest project, highlight your blog, or feature your portfolio with style. It&#8217;s like giving your digital presence a makeover, all in one place.</p>



<p>And here&#8217;s a little bonus: <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/06/26/link-your-gravatar-profile-with-a-free-custom-domain/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">claim your free .link domain</a>. It&#8217;s your chance to own your corner of the web. Pretty neat, right?</p>



<p>Whether you&#8217;re a blogger, creator, student, or professional, your Gravatar profile is now your go-to spot for sharing everything about you.</p>



<p><a href="https://gravatar.com/profile/links" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Add new links to your profile here.</a></p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Networking, Simplified</h2>



<img tabindex="0" width="2880" height="2160" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/contact-sharing-nfc-1.png" alt="" class="wp-image-2003" />



<p>Remember the awkward dance of exchanging contact info at events or with a new acquaintance? Those days are over. </p>



<p>Share your Gravatar profile link, and you&#8217;re instantly connected. On mobile, we&#8217;ve added an &#8216;Add to contacts&#8217; button. One tap, and you&#8217;re in their address book (only any info you&#8217;ve made public, no worries). </p>



<p>We&#8217;ve even spruced up the QR code for your profile. Networking just got a whole lot smoother.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Simple Contact Form, Your Way</h2>



<img tabindex="0" width="2880" height="2160" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/profile-message.png" alt="" class="wp-image-2000" />



<p>We&#8217;ve introduced a handy messaging feature. When enabled, other Gravatar users can send you a short message without seeing your email. It&#8217;s like a digital handshake, complete with their Gravatar profile info. You&#8217;re in control of whether to reply to the email and continue the conversation.</p>



<p>To turn it on, visit the <a href="https://gravatar.com/profile/avatars">Contact info tab</a> in the profile editor and toggle <em>&#8216;Allow anyone to send me a message&#8217;</em>. That&#8217;s it!<a href="https://gravatar.com/profile/contact-info/email"></a></p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Picture Perfect Avatars</h2>



<img tabindex="0" width="2800" height="1720" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/image-4.png" alt="" class="wp-image-1992" />



<p>Our new photo editor is faster, mobile-friendly, and packed with tools to make your avatar stand out:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Filters</li>



<li>Stickers</li>



<li>Brightness</li>



<li>Contrast</li>



<li>Temperature</li>



<li>Vignette and more<br /></li>
</ul>



<p>Upload a <a href="https://gravatar.com/profile/avatars">new </a><a href="https://gravatar.com/profile/avatars" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">avatar</a> image to give it a spin.</p>



<p>And look for the photo editor to be expanded and added to all photo uploads in Gravatar in the weeks to come.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Quick Editor for Developers</h2>



<img tabindex="0" width="2800" height="1720" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/image-5.png" alt="" class="wp-image-1993" />



<p>Developers, we&#8217;ve got you covered!</p>



<p>Say hello to the Quick Editor! Now users can update their Gravatar right in your app or website. It&#8217;s seamless integration at its finest. And keep an eye out — a native mobile SDK avatar editor is on the horizon.</p>



<p><a href="https://docs.gravatar.com/sdk/web-components/quickeditor/">Learn more about the Quick Editor here.</a></p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Settings Simplified</h2>



<img tabindex="0" width="2800" height="1720" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/image-6.png" alt="" class="wp-image-1995" />



<p>We&#8217;ve tidied up your account settings into one neat page. </p>



<p>Privacy, security, language preferences, timezone &#8211; it&#8217;s all there. Your data, your rules.</p>



<p><a href="https://gravatar.com/profile/?modal=account-settings&path=general">Go here to give your account settings a quick review.</a></p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Fresh Face, Same Mission</h2>



<img tabindex="0" width="2679" height="1592" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/homepage.png" alt="" class="wp-image-2017" />



<p>Oh, and one more thing! </p>



<p>We&#8217;ve given our home page a complete makeover. It&#8217;s not just a new coat of paint &#8211; we&#8217;ve redesigned it to better reflect our mission of empowering your digital identity. </p>



<p>Pop over to <a href="https://gravatar.com">gravatar.com</a> and check it out. We think you&#8217;ll love how it showcases all the ways Gravatar can amplify your online presence.</p>



<p>These updates aren&#8217;t just cool features. They&#8217;re about empowering you to create and manage your online identity with ease. We&#8217;re not just about avatars anymore — we&#8217;re your digital profile hub.</p>



<p>So go ahead, take these new features for a spin and share the links to your profile near and far. We can&#8217;t wait to see how you use them to showcase your awesome self across the web.</p>



<p>Happy Gravatar-ing!</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 31 Jul 2024 14:10:17 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:11:"Ronnie Burt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:2;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:86:"WPTavern: #130 – Elena Panciera &amp; Chiara Pennetta on Making the Web for the Deaf";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:48:"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=157578";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:94:"https://wptavern.com/podcast/130-elena-panciera-chiara-pennetta-on-making-the-web-for-the-deaf";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:38779:"Transcript<div>
<p>[00:00:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>



<p>Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things, WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case, making the web a better place for those who are deaf.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast player of choice, or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast. And you can copy that URL into most podcast players.</p>



<p>If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox, and use the form there.</p>



<p>So on the podcast today, we have Elena Panciera and Chiara Pennetta.</p>



<p>Elena is a freelance consultant specializing in inclusive and accessible languages. She champions, linguistic inclusivity, advocating for simplifying language to aid understanding for non-native speakers across all languages. She believes in providing tools to make text more comprehensible for everyone.</p>



<p>Chiara has been a special needs educator for the past two years. Deaf since infancy, Chiara underwent cochlear implant surgery four years ago, significantly improving her hearing. This transformative experience deepened, and altered, her connection to her deaf identity, and spurred her to explore issues of deafness and accessibility.</p>



<p>They&#8217;re joining us to discuss the important topic of accessibility online. Accessibility is often an overlooked aspect of web development and event planning, and there are significant challenges and opportunities in making content accessible to diverse audiences.</p>



<p>Elena and Chiara walk us through their personal journeys and professional insights, shedding light on the varying needs within the deaf community.</p>



<p>Chiara shares her experiences of navigating a world that is increasingly leaning towards video content. And how platforms like TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube have improved accessibility through automatic captioning.</p>



<p>Elena highlights the importance of these features, not only for deaf individuals, but also for a broader audience that benefits from reading captions.</p>



<p>We talk about the implications of the European Accessibility Act, set to revolutionize accessibility requirements for websites. What will this mean for developers and content creators? Are captions enough, or should we aim for sign language interpretations as well, despite their complexity and cost?</p>



<p>We also talk about the essential principles of simplification in transcription, and our AI tools are shaping how we deliver accessible content. Chiara emphasizes the diverse needs of individuals with hearing impairments, and why aligning transcriptions with the original content is crucial.</p>



<p>Towards the end, we explore technologies which are improving communication for the deaf community, and the practical steps WordPress events can take to be more inclusive.</p>



<p>Whether you&#8217;re a web developer, event planner, or just passionate about accessibility, this episode is for you.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re interested in finding out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading over to wptavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>



<p>And so without further delay, I bring you Elena Panciera and Chiara Pennetta.</p>



<p>I am joined on the podcast today by Elena Panciera and Chiara Pannetta. Very nice to have you both with me.</p>



<p>[00:04:10] <strong>Elena Panciera:</strong> Thank you.</p>



<p>[00:04:11] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> We&#8217;re in WordCamp Europe. It is Saturday, so it&#8217;s the final day of the conference, and I&#8217;m talking to these two fine people about a topic that they spoke about. It was yesterday I think, and so we&#8217;re going to get into that topic in a moment. And it&#8217;s a topic that, I confess, I don&#8217;t know very much about. So hopefully they&#8217;re going to tell me, and educate me a lot about it.</p>



<p>But before we do that, one at a time, could I ask you just to introduce yourselves. Tell us a little bit about who you are, where you come from, where you live, what you do for a living, that kind of thing. So let&#8217;s go.</p>



<p>[00:04:42] <strong>Elena Panciera:</strong> Hi, I&#8217;m Elena Panciera, and I&#8217;m a freelance consultant. I&#8217;m expert about inclusive and accessible languages. And, well, I work as a freelancer, so I&#8217;m a trainer, I make consultancies about accessibility, and about how to be kind and respectful with language. This is what I do.</p>



<p>[00:05:05] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Thank you.</p>



<p>[00:05:06] <strong>Chiara Pennetta:</strong> Hello, my name is Chiara Pennetta. I am 30 years old from Italy. I work as a teacher in special needs education, since two years ago. I studied Ancient Greek and Latin, and then I specialised in teaching Italian as a second language. But four years ago, I got two cochlear implants because I am deaf since I was one and a half years ago. Five years ago in fact, I chose to try and improve my hearing with this surgery, which is called cochlear implant.</p>



<p>In that moment I became more hearing from a medical point of view, but I became also more deaf from an identity point of view. And so I chose to delve more into the topic of deafness and accessibility. And that was when I opened my Instagram page, which is called the undeaf, because I don&#8217;t feel hearing nor deaf.</p>



<p>And that was when I met Elena, and we started studying, and working together to make the world a more accessible place. And that was also when I decided to be a teacher for the people with disabilities in high school here in Italy.</p>



<p>[00:06:26] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Thank you very much. Can I just ask you, you said that your medical deafness had improved, but your, I think you said identity. Did you say identity? Your identity deafness or something. What did that mean? What did you mean by that?</p>



<p>[00:06:42] <strong>Chiara Pennetta:</strong> I think that deafness is considered a disability by most people. So the lack of hearing. But deafness is also a community, a culture, and a language. Because if you start studying sign language like I did four years ago, you will find out that there is a new whole world to discover about deaf identity.</p>



<p>For me, that was life changing. It&#8217;s a paradox because I found out about my deaf identity only when I improved my hearing. It&#8217;s a paradox I know. But my cochlear implant are more visible than the hearing aid I have had before. And so my deafness became more visible, but also more invisible because my speech improved. My access to the world of sounds improved. Also my identity, like I said before.</p>



<p>[00:07:42] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, that&#8217;s really interesting. Okay, thank you for clearing that up. I appreciate it.</p>



<p>So during the course of this interview, I will be asking questions, and it doesn&#8217;t really matter who wants to take it, but thank you for the introductions.</p>



<p>So let&#8217;s begin then. So the first question that I&#8217;ve got really is, well, I should probably introduce what you spoke about at WordCamp Europe. Your topic was called Digital and Linguistic Accessibility Techniques and Strategies for deaf people. So we&#8217;re going to try and explore that a little bit.</p>



<p>And my first question then is, what kind of experiences on the web are different if you are deaf? So I am in the fortunate position to have good eyesight, I wear glasses, but I have good eyesight. You know, my hands and my legs all work. I can hold a mouse, I can type on a keyboard, and my hearing is good. So I genuinely don&#8217;t know what it would be like to browse the internet, to move around online if I couldn&#8217;t hear. So could you just describe the difference it would be, for me, if I had deafness.</p>



<p>[00:08:44] <strong>Chiara Pennetta:</strong> Sure. I think that the biggest difference is about all the video, and sound, musical content, of course. So anything that you experience with your hearing is different, if you don&#8217;t have hearing at all, or are partially deaf. Any video, any podcast of course, any web content which is accessible by audio feed, needs to be supported with the captions or transcription, or like signals. I don&#8217;t know, maybe it is not web related, but in movies when you have captions, and someone knocks at the door, the captions signal that there is someone knocking. So sound signals and transcription is really important. I think that that&#8217;s the most important thing to say.</p>



<p>But yesterday, Elena and I really focus that, in many occasions, captions and transcription are not enough. Because many people who are born deaf, and maybe don&#8217;t use hearing aids, sometimes are not proficient in understanding an oral spoken language, even if it is in a written form.</p>



<p>So they can have struggles in understanding complex, and the longest sentences with the complex syntax, and the vocabulary. Elena, which she&#8217;s expert in language accessibilities, really gave tools to write in a way that is accessible to people who don&#8217;t have a high level of proficiency in understanding a written text.</p>



<p>[00:10:22] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Right, so the assumption then that if I, for example, produce a video, and I&#8217;m very, the word I&#8217;m going to use is verbose, meaning I use too much language, I&#8217;m talking but my sentences are complicated and what have you. Are you suggesting then you need to bear in mind making it more straightforward? Because if I&#8217;m reading it, it might also be the case that my level of cognition, understanding what I&#8217;m reading, may also impact my ability to understand that content. So whoever wants to take that.</p>



<p>[00:10:54] <strong>Elena Panciera:</strong> Yes, actually, we have to keep in mind that not everybody has the same level of proficiency in any language, and especially in Italian. Because in English it&#8217;s quite easier to have shorter sentences, and since it&#8217;s a very commonly used language amongst a lot of people that have other languages as first languages, English is more simple. But in Italian, for example, we commonly use very long sentences, with a lot of clauses that are not coordinate clauses, and subjunctives, and a lot of difficult words.</p>



<p>The oral Italian is simpler, and the written Italian, we tend to use more difficult words, and more difficult structures. And so it&#8217;s important to keep it simple, and to try to think that not everybody have Italian as a first language. And this happens also for every other language. So for English, but also for German, for Spanish and so on. And so we have tools that can help us trying to make a text simpler.</p>



<p>We have also artificial intelligence that can help us. There are ChatGPT, and Gemini, for example, but also tools that are integrated into WordPress. For example, Yoast or Semrush have tools that help simplify text, and choose simpler words, and more common words, for example.</p>



<p>[00:12:43] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Can I ask you a question about this podcast? So when I have finished editing this, I will make a transcription and I will try to make it perfect, exactly what you say. However, sometimes, because you are speaking in your native language is Italian, I sometimes take the position that it&#8217;s better for me to translate it into the English that I would like you to have said, if you were an English speaker. What do you think about that? I&#8217;m sometimes faced with the difficult thing, okay, I think they meant to say it this way, so I&#8217;ll write it that way, whereas you didn&#8217;t actually say it that way. What should I do?</p>



<p>[00:13:25] <strong>Elena Panciera:</strong> Actually, this is a very interesting question, because I think there are also different positions about that. Because sometimes I&#8217;ve been told that it&#8217;s better to have very, very, transcriptions that are perfect. And so they transcript exactly what the speaker said. But actually, in terms of accessibility, maybe it could be more interesting, even simplify a little bit the language. So make the sentences shorter and, I don&#8217;t know, adapt a little bit the transcription.</p>



<p>[00:14:02] <strong>Chiara Pennetta:</strong> I would like to add something on this topic. I don&#8217;t know if you ever noticed that in many movies when you buy the DVD, or Netflix too I think, you can choose from normal captions, basic captions, and the caption that are all called subtitles for the hearing impaired.</p>



<p>[00:14:22] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I have not come across that. So this is new. It&#8217;s interesting, keep going, yeah.</p>



<p>[00:14:25] <strong>Chiara Pennetta:</strong> Sometimes you have two kinds of transcription for movies, or a TV series because basic captions transcribe literally everything that the actors say. While captions for deaf people are often simplified in the vocabulary and grammar, because maybe the proficiency language is a bit different, and they need a language structure which is more simple and accessible.</p>



<p>[00:14:53] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> And also, I would imagine keeping up. Being able to read at the speed that somebody is saying something. So if a, let&#8217;s imagine a movie on Netflix, if an actor is speaking fairly quickly, and you are transcribing every single word, it&#8217;s hard to read at the speed of speech. If we just take out unnecessary words and just sum up the idea behind it. That&#8217;s really interesting because you have to have an opinion about what they intended to say, and how much you can simplify it, because you might lose some of the context.</p>



<p>But you can do both. You put the exact transcript, but you have the secondary choice, I&#8217;m going to use air quotes, the simpler version, fewer words, easier to understand, less complicated words, shorter words. Ah, that&#8217;s really interesting. I had no idea that existed. Do you want to add something to that?</p>



<p>[00:15:46] <strong>Elena Panciera:</strong> This is the principle of simplify and facilitate. So there are these two different concepts, the simplification and facilitation.</p>



<p>Simplification means that we adapt and change the original text. And with facilitation, we can add tools to help the reader understand the text, but the original text that remain the same. You can add glossaries. You can add another version, a simplified version, or a shorter version. Because we could have also difficulties in keeping up the attention for a long time, and to read a very long text, this could be difficult. So yeah, we have different tools to improve the accessibility.</p>



<p>And actually accessibility is multimedia, and going across different tools, and different medias. For example, the transcription is different from the audio, and also we can add graphics, illustrations, or visual tools to improve the understanding for text.</p>



<p>[00:17:03] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> What do these tools do? So I&#8217;m imagining that I&#8217;ve transcribed this, and I&#8217;ve got my perfect, in air quotes, transcription. I&#8217;m really happy with it. Do I then just copy and paste what I&#8217;ve got, put it into a tool, click a button, and it will go through it with artificial intelligence, for example, and just shorten everything, make it more brief, as we&#8217;ve just described. What do these tools do? And could you name a few, because I don&#8217;t, I&#8217;ve never heard of any of them, so I&#8217;d like to go out and find what some of them are.</p>



<p>[00:17:33] <strong>Elena Panciera:</strong> Actually, yes, there are some tools like ChatGPT, Gemini. Or specific tools like Capito that can help you doing this in a automatic way. But actually it&#8217;s always better, in my opinion, to check what the artificial intelligence do.</p>



<p>The human intelligence is still better than the artificial one. And actually you can use your critical sense. I don&#8217;t know if I can use this in English? Yes, because you can really think what is important, and maybe you can also ask, in your case, you could ask us, what would you mean with this sentence? Because it was not in a perfect English, so we can tell you and make it right. I don&#8217;t know how to say, but let the mistakes be only in the oral podcast, and make a better version in the written text.</p>



<p>[00:18:34] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Right, so a good example of that that&#8217;s coming into my mind might be, if both of us said, I don&#8217;t know the word like a lot. It&#8217;s commonly used in English, we say like, like, like, like, and also um, um, you know, those kind of things. Would you want that to be kept in a transcription, or even the audio? Because I tend to, when I edit this podcast, I tend to get rid of the bits, well, for example, of silence. There might be five seconds of silence where you think of your answer in this podcast episode. I take the position, let&#8217;s get rid of that silence. Let&#8217;s make it just so that one word follows the next word.</p>



<p>And also I take out the ums, and the ahs, and the likes and things. I&#8217;m really making a completely new version of what you said. Is that a good idea? Would you prefer to listen to exactly what we record today? Or is it okay to edit things out? Is there a better way of doing it?</p>



<p>[00:19:28] <strong>Chiara Pennetta:</strong> I think oral version of a thing and the written version, or the painted version, or the dance version of something are, of course, different things, because they&#8217;re different products. So we can&#8217;t expect to be the same, it wouldn&#8217;t be right. They are two different things, so it&#8217;s normal. That&#8217;s not the same thing because you can, you perceive those two things with two different senses. And so I think it is right to delete the ums and the like, because it will be not pleasurable to read a text full of ums and like.</p>



<p>It depends also, what is the main goal that you want to achieve with that text? It is more important that people can understand what the vibe was, or what the content was.</p>



<p>I think that it is also really personal because, for example, I can hear pretty well with my cochlear implant, so I like my caption and my transcriptions to be really faithful to the original. Because if I hear, and at the same time I read, I like those two things to be the same. Or maybe if I watch a movie, I like that, when I see the lips moving, I hear the same thing, and I read the same thing on my captions.</p>



<p>But other deaf people, or maybe other people who need other kind of accessibilities, like people with learning difficulties, or people who with cognitive disabilities, they may need, and want, a different kind of test, to more get to the point, to more understand it. So I think that it is impossible to have a solution which is perfect for everyone.</p>



<p>[00:21:18] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I guess one of the things that I could do, if I had enough time and enough resources, I could also translate this from English, and have it in Italian, or Spanish, or Portuguese, or whatever language we can imagine. It will just be done in English though.</p>



<p>In a way, the ability to read a language gives you more options to make something visible, available to people from different cultures. If it&#8217;s just a YouTube video with no captions, no subtitles, and it&#8217;s just in English, only English people, or not English people, English speaking people can understand that.</p>



<p>If you throw in the captions and the subtitles, you can actually make the exact same piece of content available to the whole world. If you could translate it into Chinese, and Japanese, and everything. But unfortunately, that&#8217;s not going to be the case, in this case.</p>



<p>Okay, back to the questions. This may seem like a silly question because, as I said, I have good hearing. Does the amount of deafness, and I don&#8217;t know what the correct word is for that but, for example, imagine somebody who has no hearing at all. Or somebody who has partial hearing, maybe one ear isn&#8217;t working as well, or if they can hear half of the sounds, or anything in between. Is there a difference there? Do we have to make things available in different ways? Just tell us what that&#8217;s like.</p>



<p>[00:22:35] <strong>Chiara Pennetta:</strong> Yeah, I think we should talk about deafnesses, plural. Because we have a wide variety of shades of deafness. Mainly since when a technology came in, I don&#8217;t know if 70 years ago we didn&#8217;t have hearing aids and cochlear implant, which work in a certain way.</p>



<p>Today, we have a wide amount of technology that can help retrieve our hearing. But even if two people with the same level of hearing loss use the same kind of hearing aid, it is not obvious that they could gain the same amount of hearing gain.</p>



<p>So definitely is a wide word, it depends on when you lose your hearing, before or after the age in which children learn to speak. And so we have prelingual or postlingual deafness.</p>



<p>And of course you can lose your healing at different levels. So mild or profound hearing loss are different. Or we have deafness for elderly people, so late life. It&#8217;s a really, really wide word.</p>



<p>Some people learn sign languages since they are little children because they are born in deaf families, into deaf culture. Some others don&#8217;t, like I became deaf when I was one year and a half, and I was born in a hearing family. So I didn&#8217;t learn sign language up until four years ago for my personal curiosity.</p>



<p>That means that I learn how to speak through hearing aids and speech therapy. But I know many people who have the same amount of hearing loss as me, from a medical point of view, but have really different speech ability and language ability. We have a very wide, a very big variety of deaf world.</p>



<p>[00:24:32] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So it feels to me like, when the internet came along, I don&#8217;t know, 1995 or something like that, that being a deaf person, you could access almost all of the internet because it was just images and text, that&#8217;s how the internet began. But more and more, fast forward to 2005, or whenever YouTube came along, video content started to rapidly take over. And now with TikTok, and apps, and the phone that you&#8217;ve got in your pocket, it feels like there&#8217;s more and more content that&#8217;s inaccessible to deaf people. Is that a trend? Is it becoming harder to use the internet? Things like YouTube, like I say, and TikTok, is that kind of taking over and making it more difficult?</p>



<p>[00:25:15] <strong>Chiara Pennetta:</strong> I don&#8217;t think it is becoming harder. I think that, maybe in the beginning, when videos weren&#8217;t captioned, yes. But now, we have automatic captions on TikTok, on Instagram mostly, and on YouTube. So even if the content creator doesn&#8217;t put on their captions, or their transcription, it is possible to activate automatic caption or automatic transcription.</p>



<p>[00:25:41] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Can I just ask, do you need to tell TikTok or YouTube to do that, or does it automatically do it for you?</p>



<p>[00:25:48] <strong>Chiara Pennetta:</strong> Yes, it&#8217;s the user responsibility because you have to click on a button to activate captions. But I think that deaf people&#8217;s lives changed with the internet because, I don&#8217;t remember the name, but back in the old days, it was invented like a phone who transcribed the phone calls. And when we started having video calls, deaf people were so happy because they could call each other, seeing each other, and use sign language during their phone calls. And so communication really exploded. It was a right that came a bit later for the deaf community, the signing deaf community of course.</p>



<p>[00:26:30] <strong>Elena Panciera:</strong> I think that also, the ability to read lips with video calls is a good accessibility sign. And captioning is getting better actually. And also, captioning is not used only by deaf people. Actually, I am one of those people that need captions because otherwise I hate the vocal messages. And I hate these kind of messages that are only oral, and so I prefer to read. And I&#8217;m not deaf actually, so accessibility can really help a lot of people, even if they&#8217;re not with disabilities.</p>



<p>[00:27:14] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> From everything that you&#8217;ve said, it really does sound like technology has improved dramatically the life of people who are deaf, and obviously you said it&#8217;s a spectrum. Yeah, when you mentioned about video calls, I hadn&#8217;t even thought about that. But suddenly you can see the person, lip read maybe, but also the sign language. It just made communication over a distance suddenly possible.</p>



<p>You could speak to people from all over the world, not rely on hearing, which of course on the phone call, the regular phone call, if you can&#8217;t see it, you couldn&#8217;t interact with it at all. Profound.</p>



<p>So technology is really helping. And I&#8217;ve got to say, dear listener, in front of me, about two feet away, I don&#8217;t know whose it is, but is a mobile phone. And the mobile phone is facing you two, and it&#8217;s translating in real time. And I&#8217;m watching it now, you&#8217;ve just turned it around so that I can see. So it&#8217;s two feet away, it must have the microphone switched on, and it&#8217;s translating everything I&#8217;m saying, and it&#8217;s translating it literally perfectly. It&#8217;s astonishing. And this is, what, just Google? Just Google?</p>



<p>[00:28:20] <strong>Elena Panciera:</strong> Yes. It&#8217;s like a Google transcribe. There is an app free on the Google store. And this is my phone actually, because I have an Android phone, and she has an iPhone, that is more accessible for other things, I think.</p>



<p>[00:28:38] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> But, whether you&#8217;ve got an Android phone or an iPhone, I am blown away by how good that is. And obviously I&#8217;ve never had to use it, so I&#8217;ve never really seen it. Can I just ask, dare I say, we&#8217;re going off message a little bit. Would that also enable me to talk to you in Italian? So for example, could it translate my English words, and the text on the screen would then be Italian? Can it do that as well?</p>



<p>[00:29:03] <strong>Chiara Pennetta:</strong> Well, no. I think that you can, no, I know that you can set the language in which you are speaking. So if you now start speaking in Italian, I have to switch, on the app, the language to Italian, and it&#8217;ll start transcribing in Italian, or in any other language.</p>



<p>But if I wanted a live translation too, I think I&#8217;d have to use a computer, and open another app with artificial intelligence, that could transcribe and translate at the same time. There are application that can do that.</p>



<p>I actually saw, maybe yesterday, I saw on the laptop of the people who are helping out in the speech on the track one, and they had an application I think that said, if you want to change, on your device, the language of the captions, you could. So I think there may be people who couldn&#8217;t understand English, because yesterday we spoke in English, and there were also captions on the main screen, projected in English, that transcribed like now.</p>



<p>But I think maybe you could download an app or something that also translates into another language. So this is all the work of artificial intelligence. So I think that maybe because languages are so rich, and different, I think it is impossible to achieve a perfect translation. For the main content I think it&#8217;s useful as well.</p>



<p>[00:30:40] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Genuinely, I&#8217;m astonished by how good that is. And it&#8217;s enabling me, I mean you could have had headphones in, but you&#8217;ve chosen not to, but I&#8217;m noticing that you are looking down at it, and so you are seeing and reading what I&#8217;m saying in real time. That is profoundly amazing. This kind of stuff must make life a lot more straightforward, and a lot simpler. Yeah, that&#8217;s absolutely brilliant.</p>



<p>Off pieced again, how do we do at WordPress events, helping out people who are deaf? Do we get it right? Do we have the right balance of, I don&#8217;t know, sign language, captioning? Do we do pretty well, or is there work that we still need to do?</p>



<p>[00:31:18] <strong>Chiara Pennetta:</strong> Well, I am very happy with the captions, but I didn&#8217;t see any sign language interpreter. I don&#8217;t know if there, I didn&#8217;t see any, that&#8217;s my opinion, my experience. But I also didn&#8217;t ask for it because, even if I know sign language, I don&#8217;t rely on it to access to the world. So maybe if I ask for it, it would be possible to gain an interpreter.</p>



<p>But I think the problem is, I only know Italian sign language. Since there are many sign languages in the world that I don&#8217;t know, British or American sign language, I think it&#8217;ll be difficult to find an interpreter who can listen to English, and then in his or her mind, translate into Italian, and then translate again into Italian sign language. There are people who can, amazing people, but it&#8217;s not easy.</p>



<p>Or we could ask for an international sign interpreter. And the international sign is not an actual language, but it&#8217;s a mix of different sign languages, mostly based on ASL American Sign Language. And so I think that I could understand it, but I never tried.</p>



<p>But I&#8217;m really happy with the organisation. It was the first time for me to attend the WorldPress conference, nevertheless WordCamp Europe, so I felt really welcome, and my needs were met.</p>



<p>[00:32:49] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Good. Yeah, well, I&#8217;m pleased to hear it. I&#8217;ve no clue really as to whether or not, at some events, they do have sign language. But yeah, that&#8217;s an interesting point, I hadn&#8217;t really thought about that. It would have to be, the sign language would have to be, in English or American English, whichever. And then you would also have to understand that, as somebody that was using sign language, you&#8217;d have to not only be able to use the English sign language, but then presumably you&#8217;d have to translate it in your own head into Italian. So that, yeah, that would make life really difficult.</p>



<p>[00:33:18] <strong>Elena Panciera:</strong> Yeah. Actually, in this kind of event, I think that the best solution is to ask people attending the conference, what do you need? Because actually, maybe you could have a person from France that communicates with French sign language, and they could need French sign language. And so it&#8217;s easier to meet their need, and to ask French sign language interpreter to help them. Because otherwise it could be really, really, expensive, you know, to translate versus toward every language.</p>



<p>[00:33:57] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. You can imagine there&#8217;d be 15 people standing on the stage, with the French translation, or the sign language, the English, the, I don&#8217;t know, Portuguese, or whatever. Yeah, that could be interesting.</p>



<p>So I know neither of you are lawyers. We established that at the beginning, but just, I&#8217;m near the end now, my question is all about website builders, people who build websites. That&#8217;s what most of us are here for. We&#8217;re building websites using WordPress to do that.</p>



<p>Is there any responsibility, any legal things that we need to know about? I know that in 2025 we&#8217;ve got the European Accessibility Act. Will it become required, for example, with video to have captions, things like that? Do you know? And I, again, I stress, you&#8217;re not lawyers, we understand. But, do you know if we, as website builders, are compelled to do that? I know that we should do that, it would be the right thing to do, and the moral thing to do. But I think sometimes it&#8217;s easy to not do those things because it&#8217;s cheaper, quicker, all of those things. So do you know if there&#8217;s any compulsion, any legal reason that we must do this?</p>



<p>[00:34:58] <strong>Elena Panciera:</strong> Actually, yes. From the 2025, we have to think in a different way about accessibility because there is the European Accessibility Act that is going to be followed. We have to follow this act.</p>



<p>Actually, there are different levels of accessibility, and the captions, for example, they&#8217;re quite simple, and quite cheap with artificial intelligence. For example, a translation in sign language would be another level of accessibility that is not mandatory. It depends on how the budget is, and how also the aim of the company is.</p>



<p>Because maybe if a company know that it&#8217;s public, its audience is mainly, or a huge amount of people is deaf, it could decide to invest some money into having a sign language interpreter, for example, that is not mandatory. But the captions, well, are supposed to be there. And, yeah, also other things, transcriptions, but yeah.</p>



<p>[00:36:14] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> We&#8217;ll have to wait and see, won&#8217;t we, how well it&#8217;s enforced next year. Because we&#8217;ll have the legislation, but it&#8217;ll be interesting to see if people adhere to it. And if they don&#8217;t adhere to it, whether or not they get, well, punished, for want of a better word. We&#8217;ll just have to see how that goes.</p>



<p>I think with the time coming up to nearly the hour, we&#8217;ll knock it on the head, as we say in the UK. We&#8217;ll end it there. But thank you for speaking to me about this today. I&#8217;m going to be really curious what you make of the transcription, and the edit of the audio that I do from this. I&#8217;m fascinated to see whether I over edited it. Whether I took out the ums, and the ahs, and the silences that we had, we are going to edit some mistakes out and things like that.</p>



<p>But I&#8217;m more curious about what you think of the transcription that I do, and whether or not it&#8217;s what you would&#8217;ve liked it to have been, or whether or not I overdid it. So let&#8217;s wait and see. I&#8217;ll send it to you before it comes out. But thank you so much for chatting to me today, both of you. I&#8217;ve really enjoyed it, and I&#8217;ve learned a lot. Thank you.</p>



<p>[00:37:11] <strong>Chiara Pennetta:</strong> Thank you to you.</p>



<p>[00:37:12] <strong>Elena Panciera:</strong> Thank you. It was really a pleasure to be here.</p>
</div>



<p>On the podcast today we have Elena Panciera &amp; Chiara Pennetta.</p>



<p>Elena is a freelance consultant specialising in inclusive and accessible languages. She champions linguistic inclusivity, advocating for simplifying language to aid understanding for non-native speakers across all languages. She believes in providing tools to make text more comprehensible for everyone.</p>



<p>Chiara Pennetta has been a special needs educator for the past two years. Deaf since infancy, Chiara underwent cochlear implant surgery four years ago, significantly improving her hearing. This transformative experience deepened, and altered, her connection to her deaf identity and spurred her to explore issues of deafness and accessibility.</p>



<p>They’re joining us to discuss the important topic of accessibility online.</p>



<p>Accessibility is often an overlooked aspect of web development and event planning, and there are significant challenges and opportunities in making content accessible to diverse audiences. Elena and Chiara walk us through their personal journeys and professional insights, shedding light on the varying needs within the deaf community.</p>



<p>Chiara shares her experiences of navigating a world that is increasingly leaning towards video content, and how platforms like TikTok, Instagram, and YouTube have improved accessibility through automatic captioning. Elena highlights the importance of these features, not only for deaf individuals, but also for a broader audience that benefits from reading captions.</p>



<p>We talk about the implications of the European Accessibility Act, set to revolutionise accessibility requirements for websites. What will this mean for developers and content creators? Are captions enough, or should we aim for sign language interpretations as well, despite their complexity and cost?</p>



<p>We also talk about the essential principles of simplification in transcription, and how AI tools are shaping how we deliver accessible content. Chiara emphasises the diverse needs of individuals with hearing impairments and why aligning transcriptions with the original content is crucial.</p>



<p>Towards the end we explore technologies which are improving communication for the deaf community, and the practical steps WordPress events can take to be more inclusive.</p>



<p>Whether you’re a web developer, event planner, or just passionate about accessibility, this episode is for you.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Useful links</h2>



<p>Elena and Chiara&#8217;s WordCamp Europe presentation: <a href="https://europe.wordcamp.org/2024/session/digital-and-linguistic-accessibility-techniques-and-strategies-for-deaf-people/">Digital and linguistic accessibility techniques and strategies for deaf people</a></p>



<p><a href="https://yoast.com/">Yoast</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.semrush.com/">Semrush</a></p>



<p><a href="https://openai.com/chatgpt/">ChatGPT</a></p>



<p><a href="https://gemini.google.com/">Gemini</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.capito.eu/en/capitodigital/">Capito</a></p>



<p><a href="https://blog.google/outreach-initiatives/accessibility/making-audio-more-accessible-two-new-apps/">Google Transcribe</a></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 31 Jul 2024 14:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Nathan Wrigley";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:3;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:71:"Akismet: Landing Page Conversion Rates: 24 Proven Ways to Optimize Them";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"http://akismet.com/?p=284070";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:54:"https://akismet.com/blog/landing-page-conversion-rate/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:39869:"<p>Your landing page is where first impressions are made. And from there, it’s where potential customers decide if they want to do business with you.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Whether you’re a <a href="https://akismet.com/enterprise/">large enterprise</a> or a small business, this is an undeniable fact. Which means optimizing your landing page is super important. Your aim? To strive for more engagement and a higher conversion rate.&nbsp;</p>



<p>According to the <a href="https://unbounce.com/conversion-benchmark-report/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Conversion Benchmark Report</a> put together by Unbounce, the median conversion rate for landing pages across all industries is 4.3%.&nbsp;</p>



<p>So how can you ensure your landing pages meet that metric or do even better than average?&nbsp;</p>



<p>Here, we’re covering 24 proven ways to boost your landing page conversion rates. These practical tips are designed to help you capture more leads and increase sales, regardless of whether you&#8217;re using WordPress or another platform.&nbsp;</p>



<span id="more-284070"></span>


<h2 id="1-create-a-captivating-header-or-hero section" class="wp-block-heading">1. Create a captivating header or hero&nbsp;section</h2>

<p>The header or hero section is the first thing visitors see on your landing page, so it needs to grab their attention and clearly communicate your value proposition. But more on that in a&nbsp;moment.</p>

<p>Be sure to use large, bold fonts to make your message stand out, and complement this with high&#8209;resolution images or background videos. The <a href="https://www.calm.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Calm app</a>, for instance, uses ample white space and clear, compelling visuals to draw people&nbsp;in.</p>


<p>The image selected radiates a sense of calm — exactly what you’d hope to experience with the product at hand.&nbsp;</p>



<img width="1200" height="787" src="https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/image.jpeg" alt="the Calm app website with two CTA buttons" class="wp-image-284072" />


<h2 id="2-state-a-clear-value proposition" class="wp-block-heading">2. State a clear value&nbsp;proposition</h2>

<p>Your value proposition should succinctly explain how your product or service solves customers&#8217; problems. Or it might show how it improves their situation or delivers specific benefits. No matter your approach, it should tell your ideal customer why they should buy from you and not from the competition. And it shouldn’t take an entire paragraph to accomplish this&nbsp;mission.</p>


<p>An effective value proposition is a pretty important cornerstone for your entire marketing program —&nbsp;not just your landing pages. So if you don’t already have a permanent value proposition established for your company, you’ll want to spend some extra time with this step. Here are some extra tips to make the most of your efforts:</p>


<h3 id="be-specific-and-focus-on-tangible benefits" class="wp-block-heading">Be specific and focus on tangible&nbsp;benefits</h3>


<p>Steer clear of vague statements and industry jargon. Instead, talk about specific outcomes customers can expect and benefits you offer. So, instead of saying &#8220;Improve your productivity,&#8221; specify how and by how much. Something like, &#8220;Reduce unnecessary meetings to boost your team&#8217;s productivity by 40% in just one month&#8221;,​ is a much clearer value proposition.&nbsp;</p>


<h3 id="address-your-ideal-customerâs-pain points" class="wp-block-heading">Address your ideal customer’s pain&nbsp;points</h3>

<p>Understand your customers&#8217; challenges and explain how your product or service addresses these issues. Conducting customer research and gathering feedback can help you pinpoint these needs and incorporate them into your landing page&nbsp;copy.</p>

<h3 id="emphasize-what-sets-you apart" class="wp-block-heading">Emphasize what sets you&nbsp;apart</h3>


<p>This could be unique features, superior quality, exceptional customer service, or some new technology. Take P2 as an example. ​They keep their homepage or landing page simple, with a headline visible immediately. As of 2024, it includes, “A platform for teams to share, discuss, and collaborate openly, without interruption.”&nbsp;</p>



<img width="1600" height="838" src="https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/image.png" alt="P2 homepage with a clear value proposition" class="wp-image-284074" />



<p>And a quick scroll makes it abundantly clear that the value proposition here is a streamlined team communication and work reporting platform.&nbsp;</p>


<h2 id="3-write-compelling headlines" class="wp-block-heading">3. Write compelling&nbsp;headlines</h2>


<p>A compelling headline is critical for capturing your audience’s attention and encouraging them to read further. It’s the first thing visitors notice, and it sets the tone for the rest of your landing page.&nbsp;</p>



<p>To create headlines that convert, you need to ensure they immediately convey what your product or service is and the primary benefit it offers. Avoid ambiguous or clever phrases that might confuse visitors. Clear and direct headlines ensure that visitors understand the core message at a glance. For instance, <a href="https://www.grammarly.com">Grammarly</a> features a few headlines on its landing page, including, “Better writing, better results.”&nbsp;</p>



<img width="1200" height="534" src="https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/image-2.jpeg" alt="Grammarly homepage with a clear headling" class="wp-image-284076" />



<p>Both of these headlines make it clear what customers stand to gain from using this service.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Beyond the benefit-focus, you can also follow a couple of tried and true rules for writing compelling headlines. For instance, you can use powerful words that evoke emotion and encourage action, like “Transform” or “Discover”.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Including numbers or specific data in your headline can make it more credible, too. Statistics, percentages, and specific figures attract more attention than generic statements.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>


<h2 id="4-use visuals" class="wp-block-heading">4. Use&nbsp;visuals</h2>


<p>Visual elements matter a great deal, too. They help to break up text, illustrate key points, and keep visitors interested. So it’s obviously worthwhile to include only high-quality images on your landing page.&nbsp;</p>


<p>Doing so will make it look more professional. Any old image won’t do, however. Make sure the visuals you select are relevant to your content. For example, lifestyle images that depict people using your product in real&#8209;life scenarios can create an emotional connection with&nbsp;visitors​.</p>


<p>You could make use of background videos, too. These add a dynamic element to your hero section, making it more engaging. They should be short, relevant, and high-quality — of course — and feed into the overall visual narrative of your landing page.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>


<p>A strategically&#8209;placed infographic is a nice touch, too. These images make it straightforward to display complex information in an accessible way. They can help explain processes, display statistics, and illustrate the benefits of your&nbsp;product.</p>


<h2 id="5-keep-forms-short-and-simple " class="wp-block-heading">5. Keep forms short and simple&nbsp;</h2>


<p>No one wants to have to spend several minutes completing a complex form. That’s why keeping yours short and simple can help boost the conversion rate on your landing page. This won’t necessarily apply to every industry, where some might need to capture a great deal of information to do business together&nbsp;properly.</p>


<p>For most, however, keeping the number of fields on your forms limited is a wise choice. Try to keep it all on one screen, too. Multistep forms can be effective in fields where you have complex data collection needs, but a straightforward 3-4 field form is still typically best.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Ensure that each form field has a clear, concise label that indicates what information is required, and make use of inline validation. This provides real-time feedback to people as they fill out the form.&nbsp;</p>



<p>This feature helps users correct errors immediately and increases the likelihood of form completion.&nbsp;</p>



<p>The <a href="https://akismet.com/talk-to-sales/">Akismet enterprise</a> contact page offers a solid example of an effective landing page contact form.&nbsp;</p>



<img width="1600" height="866" src="https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/image-1.png" alt="Akismet form with just a few fields" class="wp-image-284077" />



<p>It asks for straightforward, relevant information without being overwhelming. There’s just enough questions to segment submissions without plummeting conversion rates.&nbsp;</p>


<h2 id="6-avoid-using captcha" class="wp-block-heading">6. Avoid using&nbsp;CAPTCHA</h2>


<p><a href="https://akismet.com/blog/what-is-captcha/">CAPTCHAs are commonly used to prevent spam</a> and bot submissions on forms, but they can also create friction and frustration for genuine users. Any added friction in the conversion process can lead to an increased bounce rate. So, skipping the CAPTCHA on your landing page forms is the best approach.&nbsp;</p>


<p>Beyond the UX inconvenience they pose, CAPTCHAs also present accessibility issues and can be quite problematic for those with disabilities. Visually impaired people may find it challenging to complete visual CAPTCHAs, while audio CAPTCHAs may not be effective in noisy environments or for those with hearing impairments. A less accessible, inclusive website can make for a knock to your brand’s reputation, a lack of compliance with accessibility standards, and reduced conversion&nbsp;rates.</p>


<img width="1200" height="667" src="https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/image-3.jpeg" alt="information about Akismet's features" class="wp-image-284078" />


<p>All that said, you still don’t want to be inundated with spam. Thankfully, there’s a better way to prevent this kind of&nbsp;annoyance.</p>


<p>Instead of relying on CAPTCHAs, using <a href="https://akismet.com/features/">Akismet</a> is an effective, cost-efficient solution. Akismet’s powerful spam filtering service can automatically detect and block spam submissions without requiring any user interaction.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Used on over 100 million sites, Akismet works continuously in the background without slowing down your site, and it boasts a 99.99% accuracy rate.&nbsp;</p>


<h2 id="7-focus-on benefits" class="wp-block-heading">7. Focus on&nbsp;benefits</h2>


<p>Though mentioned in passing in a few of the points previously, prioritizing benefits warrants its own item on this list. It can’t be overstated how important focusing on benefits of your product or service is — especially in contrast to just listing features.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Benefits explain how the features improve your customer’s life, solve their problems, or fulfill their needs. A list of features doesn’t do any of this, as it doesn’t offer the “why”. A benefits-focus, however, is compelling and relatable.&nbsp;</p>



<p>If you’re stumped on where to begin with this, try translating each of your product or service’s features into a clear, user-centric benefit.&nbsp;</p>



<p>For example, instead of just stating &#8220;Our software has automated reporting&#8221;, you might say, &#8220;Save hours of manual work every week with our software&#8217;s automated reporting. This allows you to focus on the big picture&#8221;.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Emphasize your unique selling points, too. They should be framed as benefits that set your product apart from the competition. Why is your product the best choice?&nbsp;</p>



<p>For instance, if you sell solar panels, you might say, &#8220;Our solar panels are designed to withstand extreme weather conditions, providing reliable energy production year-round.&nbsp;</p>


<h2 id="8-include-video testimonials" class="wp-block-heading">8. Include video&nbsp;testimonials</h2>


<p>You can boost landing page conversion rates by incorporating video testimonials into your content as well. These videos act as social proof by showcasing real customers who have benefited from your product or service. When your claims can be backed up by real customers’ words, your USPs become much more convincing.&nbsp;</p>



<p>You’ll need to use real customers in your video testimonials to provide authenticity and relatability. Genuine experiences from actual users are much more convincing than scripted or generic endorsements.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Encourage those who provide testimonials to be specific and results-oriented in their commentary. Did your product make their workflow more efficient? Did they save money? Be sure the benefits and outcomes are emphasized.&nbsp;</p>



<p>While the content of the testimonial is most important, good production quality can enhance the credibility and professionalism of the video as well. Good lighting, clear audio, and a stable camera setup never hurts.&nbsp;</p>



<p><a href="https://www.instrumentl.com/customers">Instrumentl</a>, a grant finding tool and non-profit, has a dedicated customer stories landing page with video testimonials prominently displayed.&nbsp;</p>



<img width="1200" height="585" src="https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/image-4.jpeg" alt="Instrumentl homepage" class="wp-image-284079" />


<h2 id="9-highlight-social-proof-to-build credibility" class="wp-block-heading">9. Highlight social proof to build&nbsp;credibility</h2>

<p>Video testimonials are an example of social proof, but there’s more to it than just that. Social proof offers a direct way to boost your landing page&#8217;s credibility and encourage conversions. It makes use of the influence of others to validate your product or service. This makes potential customers more likely to trust your brand because they’re hearing from past&nbsp;customers.</p>

<p>Customer testimonials provide first&#8209;hand accounts of users’ positive experiences with your company. Featuring quotes — written or video — can go a long way to encourage the&nbsp;sale.</p>

<p>In&#8209;depth case studies are another solid approach here. You can use them to showcase detailed examples of how your product or service has solved specific problems. These narratives often include before&#8209;and&#8209;after scenarios to demonstrate measurable results and concrete&nbsp;benefits.</p>

<h2 id="10-use-trust signals" class="wp-block-heading">10. Use trust&nbsp;signals</h2>


<p>Trust signals are little design elements or phrases you can add to your landing page that reassure visitors about the credibility and safety of your business.&nbsp;</p>



<p>You can show trust badges and certifications from reputable organizations to further reassure site visitors of your credibility. Things like industry awards and memberships apply here, as do things like a badge stating you’re a <a href="https://www.bbb.org/get-accredited" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">BBB Accredited Business</a>.&nbsp;</p>


<p>Security badges from reputable organizations indicate that your website is safe and secure for transactions, too. Common examples include SSL certificates and <a href="https://www.trustedsite.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">TrustedSite</a>. Displaying these badges near forms and payment sections can add that bit of extra reassurance customers need to&nbsp;convert.</p>


<p>Other trust signals relate to how you do business. Offering a money-back guarantee can significantly reduce the perceived risk of purchasing your product or service. The same goes for posting clear and fair return and refund policies. Putting these in an accessible location indicates your company is customer-centric and willing to address any issues that arise post-purchase.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Displaying user reviews and ratings from third-party sites such as Google, Yelp, or industry-specific review platforms can add a layer of authenticity and trust, too.&nbsp;</p>



<p>You can also display client and partner logos on your landing page to serve as quick endorsements.&nbsp;</p>


<p>Lastly, providing clear and accessible contact information, such as a phone number, email address, and physical address, can increase trust,&nbsp;too.</p>


<p><a href="https://www.cultureamp.com" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Culture Amp</a> offers a solid example of many of these trust signals in action. They pack in many of them above-the-fold.&nbsp;</p>



<img width="1200" height="713" src="https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/image-5.jpeg" alt="CultureAmp homepage" class="wp-image-284080" />


<p>You can see past client logos, contact information, and ratings on reviews sites at a glance&nbsp;here.</p>

<h2 id="11-anticipate-and-address-common objections" class="wp-block-heading">11. Anticipate and address common&nbsp;objections</h2>


<p>Having a clear idea of where your potential customers are coming from and doing your best to mitigate their concerns can go a long way.&nbsp;</p>



<p>To begin, you’ll need to identify the most common objections your potential customers might have. This could include concerns about price, product effectiveness, ease of use, customer support, and return policies. You can reach out to people on social media to ask about their concerns directly to gather this information.&nbsp;</p>


<p>Then, you can create an FAQ section to answer the most common objections. That way, when a prospect lands on your site, they’ll have their questions answered without having to contact you. The less effort a potential customer has to put in to come to a purchasing decision, the&nbsp;better.</p>

<p>Providing clear pricing can help, too. There’s nothing worse for a customer than arriving at the checkout screen to realize hidden fees have been added to the purchase&nbsp;price.</p>

<h2 id="12-use-clear-calls-to-action cta" class="wp-block-heading">12. Use clear calls to action&nbsp;(CTA)</h2>


<p>A clear and compelling call-to-action is your landing page’s make-or-break moment. It’s the last bit people see before they decide to convert (or not).&nbsp;</p>



<p>To make the most of your final push to encourage prospects to become customers, be sure to use strong, action-oriented verbs that clearly tell visitors what they need to do. Phrases like &#8220;Get Started&#8221;, &#8220;Download Now&#8221;, &#8220;Sign Up Today&#8221;, and &#8220;Claim Your Free Trial&#8221; are direct and encourage immediate action.&nbsp;</p>



<p>You can also incorporate a sense of urgency into your CTA to prompt visitors to act quickly. Phrases such as &#8220;Limited Time Offer&#8221;, &#8220;Only a Few Left&#8221;, or &#8220;Register Before It’s Too Late&#8221; can create a sense of scarcity and encourage immediate action.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Any CTA you present should stand out visually on the page. Use a contrasting color that draws attention and ensures the button doesn’t blend in with the rest of the content. Make it stand out.&nbsp;</p>



<p>And don’t be afraid to include supporting text around your CTA as well. Such text provides additional context and reassurance. For example, adding a short phrase like &#8220;No credit card required&#8221; or &#8220;Free for the first 30 days&#8221; can alleviate concerns <em>and</em> make the offer more enticing.&nbsp;</p>



<p><a href="https://www.dropbox.com">Dropbox</a> offers a to-the-point CTA that’s upfront and hard to ignore.&nbsp;</p>



<img width="1200" height="489" src="https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/image-6.jpeg" alt="Dropbox page with big blue button" class="wp-image-284081" />



<p>The “Find your plan” button sounds non-committal but ultimately a great way to entice people to sign up.&nbsp;</p>


<h2 id="13-incorporate-directional cues" class="wp-block-heading">13. Incorporate directional&nbsp;cues</h2>


<p>Any visual element that guides a site visitor&#8217;s attention to critical parts of your landing page could be considered a directional cue. Often, you’ll find them pointing to key page elements like the CTA or a contact form.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Arrows are one of the most straightforward and effective directional cues. And by having them point to your CTA, you’re drawing the visitor’s eye to it and making it clear that’s where they should click next.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Similarly, lines or pathways can subtly guide the user&#8217;s gaze through the page as well. You want to lead them on a journey that ends with interacting with your CTA.&nbsp;</p>



<p>But arrows and lines aren’t the only directional cues you can use. Images of people qualify as well. Photos where the subject within is looking in the direction of your CTA is an effective choice, too. For instance, a photograph of a person looking toward a &#8220;Sign Up&#8221; button can direct people’s attention to that area.&nbsp;</p>


<h2 id="14-harness-urgency-and scarcity" class="wp-block-heading">14. Harness urgency and&nbsp;scarcity</h2>


<p>Another way to boost landing page conversion rates is by compelling visitors to act quickly. These psychological triggers leverage the fear of missing out (FOMO), which can be a powerful motivator.&nbsp;</p>



<p>You can activate FOMO by making deals available for only a limited time. When a discount or promotion is available for a short period, people may be more likely to act immediately and complete the purchase. You can clearly display the time limit with countdown timers to make the deadline visible and tangible.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Amazon does a good job of this, with their red “Limited time deal” flags on products available at a temporary discount.&nbsp;</p>



<img width="1200" height="470" src="https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/image-7.jpeg" alt="Amazon limited time deal red banner" class="wp-image-284082" />



<p>Including low stock notices on product pages leans into this sense of scarcity as well. Or, you could offer an exclusive deal to a subgroup of your customer base — like email subscribers.&nbsp;</p>



<p>You can further add to this sense of urgency and scarcity by adding real-time notifications to your site. These notifications will let customers know how many people are viewing a particular item — or how many of an item is still in stock.&nbsp;</p>


<h2 id="15-practice-risk reversal" class="wp-block-heading">15. Practice risk&nbsp;reversal</h2>


<p>Risk reversal plays into the trust signals discussed previously, but it warrants its own callout here. This tactic involves offering guarantees or assurances that reduce the perceived risk for potential customers.&nbsp;</p>


<p>The best example of risk reversal in action is offering a money&#8209;back guarantee. This offer assures customers that if they are not satisfied with the product or service, they can get a full refund. And when implemented clearly and well, this can reduce purchase hesitation. State the terms of this guarantee upfront and prominently, such as &#8220;30&#8209;day money&#8209;back guarantee&#8221; or &#8220;Satisfaction guaranteed or your money&nbsp;back&#8221;.​</p>

<p>The same goes for free trials. This offer lets customers try your product or service before committing to a purchase. This is usually a great choice for software products, subscription services, and digital products. To promote this, you might say, &#8220;14&#8209;day free trial with no credit card&nbsp;required.&#8221;</p>

<p>Along with a money&#8209;back guarantee and a free trial, you could also provide a hassle&#8209;free return and exchange policy as well as warranties, when&nbsp;applicable.</p>


<p><a href="https://www.warbyparker.com">Warby Parker</a> has an impressive free trial offer — you can test out five different eye-glasses frames at home without spending a penny.&nbsp;&nbsp;</p>



<img width="1200" height="650" src="https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/image-2.png" alt="Warby Parker landing page" class="wp-image-284083" />



<p>This offer is mentioned above the fold on the homepage, making it tempting to new customers.&nbsp;</p>


<h2 id="16-make-sure-your-pages-are-responsive-and-mobile optimized" class="wp-block-heading">16. Make sure your pages are responsive and mobile&nbsp;optimized.</h2>


<p>It might sound like a small thing, as it’s an expected part of web design nowadays, but ensuring your landing page is responsive and mobile-optimized is a must, too. Offering a seamless mobile experience for prospective customers improves UX and engagement, which means more conversions for you.&nbsp;</p>



<p>On mobile devices, your site should prioritize a clean and straightforward menu structure that’s accessible. A common approach is the &#8220;hamburger&#8221; menu, which expands when tapped. Ensure that key elements like your CTA are prominently displayed and easily accessible without requiring excessive scrolling​, too.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Keep links touch-friendly, too. And before you launch your landing page, be sure to test it across multiple devices and screen sizes.&nbsp;</p>



<h2 id="17-ensure-your-site-loads-quickly " class="wp-block-heading">17. Ensure your site loads quickly&nbsp;</h2>



<p>Paying attention to loading speeds can help keep your landing page conversion-ready. Pages that are too slow to load can cause visitors to get frustrated and bounce.&nbsp;</p>


<p>Knowing this, following best practices for improving site speed is imperative. You’ll want to pay attention to things like compressing images, making use of browser caching, and minimizing HTTP requests. You’ll also need to minify your code and use a CDN to reduce overall latency at the server level. Tools like <a href="https://pagespeed.web.dev/">Google PageSpeed Insights</a> can help you identify and address&nbsp;issues.</p>

<h2 id="18-consider-color psychology" class="wp-block-heading">18. Consider color&nbsp;psychology</h2>


<p>Another way you can improve your landing page conversion rate is by using color psychology. This is a time-honored approach in marketing that can help you effectively influence visitors&#8217; emotions and actions.&nbsp;</p>



<p>According to <a href="https://www.oberlo.com/blog/color-psychology-color-meanings">Oberlo</a>, here are some colors and their typical psychological associations. This information could help you get a handle on how your color choices can influence the ways customers feel (and act):&nbsp;</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list"><li><strong>Red</strong> creates urgency and excitement. It’s a good color for CTA buttons and limited&#8209;time&nbsp;offers.</li>

<li><strong>Blue </strong>conveys trust and calmness. This is great for finance, healthcare, and technology&nbsp;brands.</li>

<li><strong>Green</strong> is associated with growth and harmony. Green is suitable for environmental products and health&nbsp;brands.</li>

<li><strong>Yellow</strong> makes people feel optimistic. It’s effective as an accent color to highlight important&nbsp;information.</li>

<li><strong>Orange</strong> conveys a sense of confidence. This is good for CTA buttons and&nbsp;banners.</li>

<li><strong>Purple</strong> represents luxury and creativity. Purple is ideal for high&#8209;end and innovative&nbsp;products.</li>

<li><strong>Black</strong> conveys sophistication. Black is often used for luxury brands as&nbsp;well.</li>

<li><strong>White</strong> symbolizes simplicity. It’s great for backgrounds to create space and&nbsp;clarity.</li></ul>


<p>You’ll want to make use of contrasting colors to make important elements like CTA buttons stand out as&nbsp;well.</p>

<h2 id="19-offer comparisons" class="wp-block-heading">19. Offer&nbsp;comparisons</h2>

<p>If you are confident in your product or service’s ability to outperform the competition, offering direct comparisons can be a solid selling point. And in doing so, you can highlight your unique advantages and convince potential customers to choose&nbsp;you.</p>

<p>While you can simply write up comparisons as body copy, a comparison table can be helpful for those skimming through your landing page for pertinent information. In it, you’ll want to list features, pricing, benefits, and other relevant factors side by side to make it simple for visitors to see where you excel. Ensure that the table is clear, concise, and legible,&nbsp;too.​</p>


<p>Be honest in your comparisons, however. Highlighting your strengths is essential, but avoid misrepresenting or downplaying competitors if your statements are false.&nbsp;</p>


<h2 id="20-promote-lead magnets" class="wp-block-heading">20. Promote lead&nbsp;magnets</h2>


<p>Offering a lead magnet is another great way to attract attention and convert prospects into customers. Lead magnets are valuable resources offered for free to visitors in exchange for their contact information, typically an email address.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Offering any old piece of content for free won’t do, however. A successful lead magnet addresses a specific problem or offers a solution that your audience finds valuable. So long as it achieves this goal, the type of content you offer could be pretty much anything. Popular types of lead magnets include things like eBooks, checklists, access to webinars or workshops, templates, or even free samples.&nbsp;</p>



<img width="1600" height="765" src="https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/image-3.png" alt="WPVIP form with a lead capture" class="wp-image-284084" />



<p>WordPress VIP, in exchange for filling out a simple form, offers a 2024 report on how content drives growth. This is a great lead magnet, as it’s directly applicable to the types of enterprise businesses that might use their services.&nbsp;</p>


<h2 id="21-be-consistent-in-design-and message" class="wp-block-heading">21. Be consistent in design and&nbsp;message</h2>


<p>No matter your industry, presenting a consistent design and message is another key component for successful landing pages. A clear and consistent brand conveys trust helps with recall..&nbsp;</p>



<p>It’s convenient to say “be consistent” but the truth is, you need to approach the design and message with a clear plan — from the start. That means developing comprehensive brand guidelines that outline your brand’s visual and verbal identity.&nbsp;</p>



<p>These guidelines should include things like how and when your logo should be used (including size, spacing, and color variations), your site’s color palette, the typography used, the types of images (illustrations or photos), and the tone of voice of your content. Once you have these guidelines in place, you can make sure your content adheres to them.&nbsp;</p>



<p><a href="https://stripe.com/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Stripe</a> does a good job of this on its website.&nbsp;</p>



<img width="1200" height="688" src="https://akismet.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/image-8.jpeg" alt="Stripe landing page with a colorful background" class="wp-image-284085" />


<p>It prioritizes purple and blue colors, dynamic animations, and a confident&nbsp;voice.</p>

<h2 id="22-make-accessibility-a priority" class="wp-block-heading">22. Make accessibility a&nbsp;priority</h2>


<p>You’ll also want to ensure your landing page is accessible to people with disabilities. This isn’t just a legal requirement, but also an essential part of reaching everyone with an optimal user experience.&nbsp;</p>



<p>There are a few ways to ensure accessibility, including the use of semantic HTML, which provides meaningful markup that helps screen readers and other assistive technologies understand the structure of your content.&nbsp;</p>


<p>You’ll also need to provide text alternatives for images, videos, and audio files. Use alt attributes for images to describe their content. For complex images like charts, provide a detailed description in the surrounding text. And transcribing video and audio content (and offering closed captions for videos)​ goes a long way,&nbsp;too.</p>

<p>Following the <a href="https://www.w3.org/WAI/standards-guidelines/wcag/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Web Content Accessibility Guidelines</a> is your best bet for making sure you cover all aspects of web accessibility, from ARIA landmarks to keyboard&nbsp;accessibility</p>

<h2 id="23-offer-live-chat-for-personalized assistance" class="wp-block-heading">23. Offer live chat for personalized&nbsp;assistance</h2>


<p>One way to really make your landing page stand out is to offer live chat. Providing real-time, personalized assistance makes it so you’re addressing customer questions the moment they arise. You can resolve issues and guide visitors through the decision-making process immediately. When you provide timely help like this, you’ll boost conversions.&nbsp;</p>



<p>You can also use proactive chat invitations to engage visitors who may need assistance but haven’t initiated a chat yet. For example, if someone spends a decent chunk of time on a product page or is about to exit, a chat popup can appear asking if they need help.&nbsp;</p>



<p>For instance, if you have a WordPress site, a WooCommerce extension like <a href="https://woocommerce.com/products/livechat/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">LiveChat for WooCommerce</a> can help you field customer questions in real time in a way that’s integrated with your broader store.&nbsp;</p>


<h2 id="24-ab test" class="wp-block-heading">24. A/B&nbsp;test</h2>


<p>The last recommended tactic for improving your landing page conversion rate is to A/B test everything. Split testing involves comparing two versions of your landing page, each with a single element slightly different, to determine which one performs better.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Common elements to prioritize in A/B testing include headlines, CTA buttons, image choices, color schemes, copy, and layout variations.&nbsp;</p>



<p>With your element selected, you can then create two or more variations of the element you want to test. For instance, if you are testing headlines, write multiple versions that highlight different benefits or use different tones. Then, compare them over a set period of time. The one that encourages a better conversion rate is the winner. Then you can move on to test a different element.&nbsp;</p>


<p>To run a test like this, you’ll need to split your website traffic. There are tons of tools out there to facilitate this, including&nbsp;<a href="https://www.optimizely.com">Optimizely</a>.</p>

<h2 id="frequently-asked questions" class="wp-block-heading">Frequently asked&nbsp;questions</h2>


<p>Now that we’ve explored multiple ways to optimize your landing pages and improve their conversion rates, take some time to browse through some frequently asked questions about this process.&nbsp;</p>


<h3 id="what-are-the-common-mistakes-to-avoid-when-designing-a-landing page" class="wp-block-heading">What are the common mistakes to avoid when designing a landing&nbsp;page?</h3>

<p>Common mistakes to avoid when designing a landing page include a cluttered design, an unclear CTA, slow loading times, a lack of mobile optimization, and not addressing visitor pain points. You’ll need to speak directly to your target audience and provide an accessible and user&#8209;friendly on&#8209;site experience to see improved conversion&nbsp;rates.</p>

<h3 id="what-is-a-good-conversion-rate-for-a-landing page" class="wp-block-heading">What is a good conversion rate for a landing&nbsp;page?</h3>

<p>A good conversion rate varies by industry. But for landing pages in general, a good conversion rate is 2&#8209;5%. However, top&#8209;performing landing pages can achieve conversion rates of 10% or higher​, especially if the industry is very&nbsp;specific.</p>

<h3 id="should-i-use-captcha-to-protect-my-form-from spam" class="wp-block-heading">Should I use CAPTCHA to protect my form from&nbsp;spam?</h3>

<p>While CAPTCHA can prevent spam, it can also deter genuine site visitors from converting. So, no, you shouldn’t use CAPTCHA and should opt for an alternative like Akismet. This anti&#8209;spam tool offers effective spam protection without compromising the user&nbsp;experience.</p>

<h3 id="what-is-akismet-and-how-can-it-improve-my-lead-generation-form-conversion rate" class="wp-block-heading">What is Akismet, and how can it improve my lead generation form conversion&nbsp;rate?</h3>

<p>Akismet is a powerful spam&#8209;filtering service that automatically detects and <a href="https://akismet.com/features/">blocks spam submissions</a>. And it doesn’t rely on CAPTCHA to do it. This means users have fewer steps to complete forms, thus improving conversion rates without leading to an increase in&nbsp;spam.</p>

<h3 id="what-types-of-companies-generally-use akismet" class="wp-block-heading">What types of companies generally use&nbsp;Akismet?</h3>

<p>Akismet is trusted by over 100 million sites, including enterprise brands like Microsoft, <a href="https://akismet.com/blog/convertkit-customerstory/">ConvertKit</a>, and Bluehost. Akismet provides effective spam protection that doesn’t impede on lead generation efforts, offering a win&#8209;win scenario for companies of all&nbsp;sizes.</p>

<h3 id="how-often-should-i-update-or-tweak-my-landing-page-for-optimal performance" class="wp-block-heading">How often should I update or tweak my landing page for optimal&nbsp;performance?</h3>


<p>You should update or tweak your landing page on a regular basis. Aim to review and make changes to your landing page at least quarterly, or more frequently if you notice a drop in performance metrics or significant changes in user behavior. Keeping an eye on metrics and conducting regular A/B tests can help mitigate sudden increases in bounce rate.&nbsp;</p>


<h3 id="what-is-a-lead-magnet-and-how-can-it-boost-my-landing-page conversions" class="wp-block-heading">What is a lead magnet, and how can it boost my landing page&nbsp;conversions?</h3>


<p>A lead magnet is a valuable resource offered for free in exchange for contact information. Popular types of lead magnets include eBooks, checklists, and reports. The most effective lead magnets attract and convert visitors by providing immediate value. This then inserts the prospect into your sales funnel, which means they’re primed and ready to make a purchase later.&nbsp;</p>


<h3 id="what-are-the-key-metrics-to-track-when-analyzing-landing-page performance" class="wp-block-heading">What are the key metrics to track when analyzing landing page&nbsp;performance?</h3>


<p>When tracking and analyzing landing page performance, you should keep an eye on its conversion rate, bounce rate, average time on page, click-through rate (CTR), and cost per conversion. Tracking these metrics helps identify areas for improvement and measure the effectiveness of the optimizations you make.&nbsp;</p>


<h3 id="what-are-some-common-mistakes-to-avoid-when-optimizing-a-landing page" class="wp-block-heading">What are some common mistakes to avoid when optimizing a landing&nbsp;page?</h3>


<p>When optimizing a landing page, you’ll want to avoid common mistakes like making too many changes at once, which makes it impossible to see how individual changes are affecting performance.&nbsp;</p>


<p>Another mistake is ignoring mobile visitors. Any landing page created in 2024 should be optimized for mobile interaction by default. Also, not aligning the page with user intent or addressing customer pain points are big&nbsp;issues.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 31 Jul 2024 13:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:11:"Jen Swisher";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:4;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:99:"Do The Woo Community: Bridging Art and Blockchain, Bringing Certification to Woo with Robert Norton";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"https://dothewoo.io/?p=84943";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:97:"https://dothewoo.io/bridging-art-and-blockchain-bringing-certification-to-woo-with-robert-norton/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:38892:"<div class="wp-block-group has-border-color has-light-gray-background-color has-background has-small-font-size has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-7 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained">
<p class="has-secondary-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-9acf640b7ba38a84a982fc35d618387f">This show is sponsored by&#8230;</p>



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Episode Transcript
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<p>Dave:<br />Welcome to this episode of Do the Woo. We&#8217;re talking Emerging Tech, and today we&#8217;re talking with Robert Norton from Verisart. Hi Robert, how are you doing?</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Good. Great to be here. Thanks for having me on the show.</p>



<p>Dave:<br />No worries. And I should probably say I&#8217;m your host, Dave Lockie as well. So I guess a bit about you, Robert. You&#8217;re the CEO and founder of Verisart. What came before that and what&#8217;s your journey been like as an entrepreneur?</p>



<p>Robert:<br />For the last 15 years, I found myself at the intersection of art and tech. Prior to Verisart, which is a platform that started doing blockchain certification for the art and collectibles market, I was running a company called Sedition Art, which was, in a way, one of the first platforms that sold digital limited editions by well-known artists. Now, of course, we come to know digital limited editions as non-fungible tokens and NFTs, which I know we&#8217;re going to get into later. But it was my time at Sedition between 2010 to 2013 that really got me thinking about how artists can find new audiences in other mediums. The principal medium of most of the artists we worked with at Sedition was physical, not digital. Prior to that, I was the founder and CEO of Saatchi Art, previously known as Saatchi Online. We turned it into an e-commerce enabled platform where artists who didn&#8217;t have any gallery representation could have a platform to show their work and sell directly to consumers. So, we did a lot of that heavy lifting for them. In some ways, it&#8217;s analogous perhaps to Etsy, but with more focus on independent working artists.</p>



<p>I guess why did I end up in this sort of strange intersection? Probably because, in the back of my mind, I wanted to do something in the art world. Both my parents did art degrees, my grandfather was a restorer, so I grew up in a household where the idea of unauthorized or authorized reproductions was quite prevalent. You&#8217;d often see, in the case of 19th-century works, studios like Joshua Reynolds would have many works of the same coming from the studio, some of which just worked on by his studio, some of which he worked on in parts, and some of which he worked on entirely. This area of multiples was really interesting to me. The aha moment with Verisart was looking at the case of the Knoedler Gallery, which came to the press around 2015. One of the oldest galleries in New York was found guilty of selling fake Rothkos, a well-known post-war artist in the states, selling these works by the dozen in modern times, in 2015. It wasn&#8217;t just unwitting people that should know better, but people like the chairman of Sotheby&#8217;s themselves. I was thinking this is a real problem when you have such trust in authorities that are clearly not able to be trusted. I thought about how to improve trust with the advent of distributed ledger technology. We&#8217;ve been tackling that problem now for almost 10 years.</p>



<p>To give you a little insight before that, I started my career back in &#8217;95 at America Online, initially in business development, then running e-commerce, and then did a bunch of startups from health to games. I was the person that launched King.com in North America. So, I was the first managing director for King.com in North America. My whole career has been in consumer-facing e-commerce, as I would describe it. While we&#8217;re not a marketplace at Verisart, we do help people with their drops and their releases. We&#8217;ve now started offering a token gate app print service, which takes us closer to revenue-generating opportunities for artists as well.</p>



<p>Dave:<br />Amazing. What strikes me about your founding story is that this was not just a love of art, but a very personal relationship with art. It was all around you, with artists and with people who were trying to make a living with art, the artists themselves, the people around that industry, the restorers, the galleries, the marketplaces. This is obviously a very deeply connected and personal mission for you.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />I think Steve Jobs said, you can connect the dots looking backwards, but you don&#8217;t necessarily connect them moving forwards. I didn&#8217;t necessarily feel it as personally, but now I think it makes sense. My wife also has a gallery that we work with, and I met my wife through my interest in art. So, I guess we&#8217;re very much an art family at this point. But really, it was the advent of blockchain technology that inspired me to do this business. One of the artists we worked with at my former company, Sedition Art, is Casey Reas. Casey is also the co-inventor, along with Ben Fry, of a language called Processing, which enabled artists to generate their digital art with a rules-based programming language. It was Casey who wrote to me in 2014 and said, &#8220;Hey Robert, looking at what you&#8217;re doing at Saatchi Online and Sedition Art, I think this technology has real potential for certification of verification purposes, both for physical and digital art.&#8221; That got me thinking about how blockchains work, mechanisms to trust a timeline, and commitments to that timeline. It felt like a good application for some of the problems we were facing with our provenance certification. In a nutshell, we were taking the certificate, typically issued by some sort of authority, maybe an estate, studio, or gallery, and the provenance, which is another fancy word for the story—the agreed story around the history of that object. That may include exhibition literature as well. We were taking the registry—who&#8217;s ultimately responsible—and binding the certificate, provenance, and registry together by shared distributed ledger technology standards. I think it makes for a stronger provenance. That&#8217;s what we&#8217;ve been doing at Verisart.</p>



<p>Dave:<br />Yeah, really interesting. Maybe you could talk to us about what that journey&#8217;s looked like. Has it been one with a lot of pivoting, large or small, or has it been more a case of feeling like you&#8217;ve got the right solution, but the job is to educate, make aware, and onboard? How would you describe that 10 years?</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Ten years ago, a small percentage of households owned crypto, and now we&#8217;re well into double digits, depending on certain age groups. I think it&#8217;s up to 40% in some age groups. As a whole, it&#8217;s about 20% or so of households in the US that now own crypto in one form or another. We&#8217;ve come a long way, and sometimes people talk about the number of households that own crypto paralleling the growth in the number of households that went online in the early days of internet service providers and online services. Whether those correlate correctly, the point is that we&#8217;ve grown from a very small base to something that feels closer to mainstream, although it&#8217;s not yet at mainstream levels of adoption. We&#8217;re not past a 50% threshold in most markets, except for a few perhaps like El Salvador, where Bitcoin&#8217;s become an alternative national currency.</p>



<p>If I could characterize what it was like in 2014, I was at this Scaling Bitcoin conference at Stanford University. There were literally probably about 200 people in the community that then went on to build aspects of the blockchain infrastructure we&#8217;re familiar with today. That was probably the size of the industry for well-known players at that point. It was very small, and even at conferences, you would struggle to get more than a thousand people to show up. Now we&#8217;ve got huge conferences from DeFi to NFTs to staking, to wallet providers, new L1s, which is layer one blockchains, new roll-ups, and L2s. The industry has really evolved. Back in 2014, 2015, I spent most of my time explaining what a blockchain was and why the words art and blockchain were in the same sentence. Now, because of the NFT boom and bust we witnessed in 2021, no one really questions why the words art and blockchain go together.</p>



<p>We&#8217;ve come a long way in terms of people&#8217;s understanding of what this technology can do, but we&#8217;re still set back by the early years in terms of the bad actors in the space. We&#8217;ve seen arrests of the principals of FTX and Binance, and bad actors erode consumer trust. That&#8217;s very unhelpful when you&#8217;re trying to bring new technologies to market. In some ways, it was like two steps forward, one step back, but we&#8217;ve really come a long way over the last 10 years. As a result, we can start focusing more on the applications and less on explaining what&#8217;s beneath the hood.</p>



<p>Dave:<br />And I think because there&#8217;s such a visual representation—maybe the only visual representation of crypto technology that most people can find—it has that artistic element to it. There have been a lot of bad actors, and the worlds where art and finance meet are often murky and gray anyway. When you accelerate that with the petrol of the internet, there have been a lot of problematic NFT projects. I can imagine that&#8217;s been particularly challenging for you. You&#8217;re certainly right, there are lots of data points, but the trend line is increasing adoption, increasing awareness. Now you mentioned this idea about mainstream, and one of the conversations I hear in crypto is that crypto will be mainstream when people are using it without knowing that it&#8217;s crypto. I noticed that at Verisart you take a very deliberately technology-inclusive approach to describing what you do. How often do you find yourself in a situation where you&#8217;re trying to explain Verisart to somebody who is utterly naive and ignorant to crypto and blockchain? Do you ever find success in converting those merchants or artists, or is this always a more progressive and educational sell where they have to get some foundations before they can see the value in what you do?</p>



<p>Robert:<br />We&#8217;ve got a good history of working with artists, and we were one of the first external curators on SuperRare, which is a well-known premium platform for unique digital artwork. So one-of-ones is what they&#8217;re often referred to</p>



<p>. Back in 2021, because of my time at Sedition, where we worked with many well-known artists from Damien Hirst to Bill Viola to Tracey Emin and Shepard Fairey, Christian Boltanski, Yoko Ono, we probably worked with a hundred of the world&#8217;s top contemporary artists during my time at Sedition. It&#8217;s still continuing to this day. That experience of speaking to an artist and understanding what they want to release as a digital edition, can we help them, have they got the facilities to do it in-house themselves—this discussion was more complex during the NFT boom and bust because there were things like needing a wallet, a smart contract, and deciding under which smart contract to mint. But we were able to have those discussions because we understood the issues ourselves. We&#8217;ve done a huge number of inaugural artists&#8217; NFTs. Whether it&#8217;s Roe Ethridge, William Wegman, Shepard Fairey, Petra Cortright, or Neil Beloufa, a lot of well-known artists&#8217; inaugural NFTs. They came to us because they were somewhat confused by this landscape and they wanted somebody they could trust to guide them through the process. We did two drops with SuperRare, 10 by 10 and 8 by 8, focused on inaugural artists&#8217; NFTs. We also did Artsy&#8217;s first NFT drop in early 2022, which included 22 artists. So, we&#8217;re absolutely in the business of handholding.</p>



<p>When it comes to looking for our audience and the actual users of our service—the SaaS users or the people that are subscribed to our software—we&#8217;ve found it&#8217;s very hard work dragging someone along to the drinking trough. It&#8217;s better if they&#8217;re already there by the waterside and you can perhaps help them more effectively. We&#8217;re not so much in the business of telling people they need to use blockchain technology, but more in the business of explaining how we can provide a good service for people who are already looking in that area.</p>



<p>Dave:<br />Cool. Yeah, that makes sense. As a small business, you have to focus on what&#8217;s achievable within your resources and timescales. I&#8217;m sure a lot of the awareness work you&#8217;re doing is going to have a knock-on effect further down into the future, but you certainly have to be judicious with the way you&#8217;re putting that target of energy. One thing I think about quite a lot, and this is with NFTs generally, not just art-based NFTs—of course, there&#8217;s some philosophical conversation about what is and isn&#8217;t art—whenever you use a new medium or format for art, it brings new constraints and opportunities creatively. With digital, it allowed for, for example, algorithmic generative art. However, then when you take digital art and put it on-chain, that also changes the format and the medium. What I&#8217;m thinking about here is the public nature of interaction with that art—who minted it, who collected it, has it been sold on secondary, what&#8217;s the price trend, all of that. My question is, to what extent is that interesting and exciting and offering new opportunities to artists where they may have had glimpses of that historically, seeing their art for sale or auction or whatever, but now they have this opportunity to be directly in communication with people that hold their art because if you both have wallets, there are plenty of ways to contact each other.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />There&#8217;s a lot to unpack there. The first is, obviously, art is now as easily tradable an asset as an NFT, as the fungible token—Ethereum, Bitcoin, Solana, or Tezos. These chains are in the business of minting coins and having people speculate on the value of those coins and the value those networks will accumulate. Remember, they all sit within the same type of wallets. That was never the case with art before. You had a painting, it may have been an asset, but it didn&#8217;t sit within your bank account, and you could trade it like you could trade pounds, dollars, or euros. You&#8217;re absolutely right to bring that up first. What the blockchain did, and particularly NFTs, is it basically meant that all the digital art released as NFTs were now effectively like financial instruments. That&#8217;s why you suddenly saw crazy amounts of speculation and wash trading, and activities that created these elevated floor prices for works that were sold or given away. The use of CryptoPunks or Bored Apes in these 10K drops became the symbol of the height of the market, where algorithms were spinning out 10,000 different variations of a theme. They were sorted by traits—certain rare backgrounds, shapes on their heads, laser eyes, etc. Artists started to use traits around art, and it became very confusing for a lot of people to determine what is art and what is just PFP—a personal profile picture. Some of these also became very valuable assets like the Punks and Apes.</p>



<p>I think that&#8217;s all now beginning to shake out. The challenges for artists probably outweigh the opportunities because artists get exhausted by having to maintain a constant dialogue with their community. The community can turn on them if the financial returns go down. It puts a lot of pressure and stress on the artists. Traditionally, artists have had dealers to remove some of their need to be there talking to their collectors. Healthy, protective art communities exist. The Art Blocks community, which we work with closely, and the generative art community are small and protective of one another. That&#8217;s a good example of a healthier discourse, but it&#8217;s not completely removed from those who just want to speculate on digital art as an asset and feel disappointed when prices don&#8217;t go their way.</p>



<p>The first thing is that art is now more of a tradable instrument than it was. It attracts speculators, and speculators outweigh collectors. We&#8217;ve seen that with the rise of marketplaces that don&#8217;t enforce artist royalties. That&#8217;s symptomatic of more speculators than collectors still in the market. We&#8217;re currently doing a show at Gazelli Art House called &#8220;Awaken and Metamagical Hands,&#8221; which includes pioneers like John Maeda, Golan Levin, Joshua Davis, and Leah, as well as younger artists like Robbie Barrat and Lauren Lee McCarthy. All these artists could have solo shows themselves, but they&#8217;re still trying to understand the role of algorithms in their relationship to others or even to themselves. Lauren Lee McCarthy, a professor at UCLA and the Design Media and Arts lab along with Casey Reas, has created an installation called &#8220;Saliva Exchange,&#8221; where people can come in and spit in a vial, write a few things about their saliva, and share it with someone else. It&#8217;s a conceptual piece addressing questions around the way algorithms are based in life and how that changes our interactions and notions of modern-day intimacy.</p>



<p>Different artists are exploring different digital trends—some using midjourney or OpenAI algorithms for generative video and art, others building their own software, and others focusing on conceptual fields. It&#8217;s an interesting time. However, the principal responsibility of an artist is to create art, not to pump their communities. Those artists who shot to fame by pumping their communities may not be the ones that last from a museum or historical standpoint.</p>



<p>Dave:<br />Yeah, interesting. Digital and blockchain art has been extremely disruptive, and that disruption continues. There are some emerging trends—very art-focused communities that are positive and nurturing, and people pushing the boundaries of generative and on-chain art. There&#8217;s still a lot more emergence to happen. Let&#8217;s switch gears a bit. We&#8217;ve mainly talked about art and blockchain so far. I&#8217;d like to bring this back down to earth for a Woo audience. We may have merchants listening who are selling art or interested in how they can use NFTs to enhance what they&#8217;re doing with e-commerce. We almost certainly have agency folks who would love to get their teams working with some of these technologies. They&#8217;re thinking about which of their clients might want to use this technology, what success looks like, etc. We talked about art being wrapped in these digital tokens. Digital assets are tokenized and put into common digital wallets. This extends to real-world assets as well—cases of wine, physical artwork, fractions of an old Mercedes, etc. If you&#8217;re just issuing NFTs and transacting on-chain, you don&#8217;t need a traditional e-commerce setup because you can do this through marketplaces. The whole idea is that you don&#8217;t need fulfillment because it&#8217;s all digital. You don&#8217;t need a traditional payment processor and checkout because it&#8217;s all based on wallet signatures and digital asset transfers. Yet, there is a lot of e-commerce happening where you do need e-commerce—you need to take delivery, accept orders, worry about tax and payments, and everything else. Where do those two worlds intersect? What does a merchant or a success story look like where you get those two things? Verisart operates in both purely digital and intersectional worlds through integrations with WooCommerce and Shopify.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />It&#8217;s super helpful when the certification is happening at the time of sale because otherwise, if you&#8217;re creating certificates on Verisart.com and doing your sale through some other mechanism, there&#8217;s always going to be a lag between the sale, the invoice happening on some platform—whether it&#8217;s your own, a third-party marketplace, or offline. We&#8217;ve always felt it&#8217;s helpful to close that gap in time for the certification at the time of transaction. With NFTs, you can mint and list the NFT later, but mostly people mint and sell the NFT at the same time. In the early years of Verisart, when we didn&#8217;t have any e-commerce integrations, people used us, but we didn&#8217;t see enough transfers of the certificates. We wanted to make that easier for people. About five years ago, we did our first app with Shopify. We&#8217;re super happy to have launched our WooCommerce app this year. We&#8217;ve learned a lot from our time on the other marketplace platform in terms of building a good app from day one with the WooCommerce audience. Our app allows people to certify products, whether physical or digital. We support minting NFTs or tokens. One thing we don&#8217;t support is fractions of an object because once you start offering fractions, you&#8217;re into the world of securities regulation, which we stay well clear of. Also, fractionalizing an artwork isn&#8217;t necessarily where there&#8217;s real demand for fractionalized opportunities. Fractionalizing businesses that provide you a yield or return that can be valued is more of an obvious first spot than fractionalizing an artwork because there often isn&#8217;t consensus around the price for unique artworks.</p>



<p>For WooCommerce merchants, we&#8217;ve seen a big trend in collectibles and a broader definition of luxury. If you thought about luxury historically, you might think of handbags, cars, and rings, but not hoodies and sneakers. But clearly, that is part of modern-day luxury. On Verisart, if you&#8217;ve got a collectible with an authority like a living creator or a trusted business, that&#8217;s a good opportunity to improve your current certificate of authenticity with digital certification branded by your store that can be verified by new owners in real time. That&#8217;s the core of our business. We have lots of different types of businesses using our certification—from custom champagne bottles to special golf clubs to digital prints and photography.</p>



<p>A good example is Johnny Depp. He built a community of NFT holders and sold those NFTs through a native Web3 drop. He then wanted to give something back to those NFT holders—allowing them to have a print of their NFT. These NFTs are part of his artwork, his friends, and they look like pop-up images. There&#8217;s a need for orders, and there&#8217;s a lag between placing the order and receiving the purchase. You get out-of-the-box order management and porting. In his case, he spun up a Shopify store and used Verisart to certify his prints. When you think about merchant needs, whether they&#8217;re Web2 or Web3, Verisart helps with certifying products, physical or digital, and minting NFTs. We&#8217;ve come a long way in giving people the tooling to build their own Web3 marketplaces if they want to. Merchants that already have a significant presence through their own website might also be on Amazon. You might have a merchant with its own domain using WooCommerce but also selling on Amazon. It&#8217;s helpful to have your own URL for those digital assets to live alongside physical ones because increasingly, they have a relationship. You buy a physical asset, maybe it grants you a token, which is a form of membership. Now you are closer to that artist&#8217;s world. You might give away that token for free. We support buying a token that allows you access to purchase a print or exclusive product at a reduced cost or ahead of others. There are a lot of ways digital and physical can complement each other. Artists are experimenting with these two mediums and offering experiences together. For example, the show we&#8217;re co-curating at Gazelli Art House in London has artists using Verisart to certify their prints, and the prints are certified as NFTs. We&#8217;re constantly looking for better ways to provide merchants and creators with tools for certifying their objects, whether physical, digital, or mapping the relationship between the two.</p>



<p>Dave:<br />I guess there&#8217;s a double-edged sword of this potentially being a tool artists can use to build and engage with their community, but not all artists. There&#8217;s nuance and unpacking to do around that for individual artists as they try to get that balance right. One thing you hinted at is that you might buy the digital token first, which gives you the right to buy a physical print or redeem it for some sort of experience later on. That fundamentally changes how art can be paid for. Instead of the artist creating art and hoping they can sell it, they can pre-sell it or fund the collection through pre-selling. Is that what the CryptoVenetians did?</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Yeah, we work with Bright Moments. We did the finale with them in Venice earlier this year. That&#8217;s exactly what we did. We had a poster only available to the holders of tokens from that last city, which was a thousand tokens minted during Venice, Italy, just after the Biennale this year.</p>



<p>Dave:<br />That was such a good documentary. I can&#8217;t find it online yet, but I watched it at a screening. It was really good fun, very heartwarming. I&#8217;ve got two more questions for you, one a bit of a double-barrel. What&#8217;s the difference between a receipt and a certificate of authenticity? They both have similar attributes, right? A receipt can improve the secondary resale value of something. It has some element of proof of authenticity. I think it&#8217;s stupid we haven&#8217;t created digital infrastructure for receipts. We can spend, but we don&#8217;t get digital receipts back automatically. For example, the best way to know how healthy you&#8217;re eating is to analyze all the receipts you get from takeaways and supermarket shops. What&#8217;s the difference between a receipt and a certificate of authenticity, both in terms of the nature and what that offers in onward value?</p>



<p>Robert:<br />In the case of token-gated prints, we incorporate the order number as part of the certificate of authenticity and the token ID used along with that order number. We have patents at Verisart for handling certification. On one end, you&#8217;ve got an unverified record, where I&#8217;ve said something about an object, but no one knows who I am or if what I&#8217;ve said is true or false. It&#8217;s the lowest amount of waiting. Then we have an issuer certificate, similar to a receipt. The retailer of the object says that this thing is true. When you&#8217;ve got an artwork where the retailer is not the creator, the certificate of authenticity is where the creator has authorized that statement. Finally, we have a certificate of authenticity plus, where there&#8217;s a physical identifier on the work like a QR tag or an NFC tag.</p>



<p>The core part of Verisart is that the certification can change state depending on the consensus, most importantly the creator. The problem in the past has been that the receipt is often the last thing the creator hears about. The collector gets it, but the creator might be told, &#8220;Oh, that receipt didn&#8217;t quite happen until maybe a year later, so we don&#8217;t owe you any money.&#8221; Verisart puts the creator more in control because they know when their certificates are transferred, there is a transaction out there. That&#8217;s helpful from a creator perspective. While there are similarities between receipts and certificates of authenticity, they are fundamentally different. Receipts require the issuer to be present in the future, and the issuer must remain trustworthy. One of the inspirations for Verisart was that issuers of these receipts were actually sending out fake works. The receipt was fine, but what it pointed to was fake. There are still challenges in the Web3 world with how NFTs have been construed. Transactions are correct, but what they point to may be incorrect. Verisart is actively trying to address this by building more trust at the time of transaction and ensuring the creator is present in terms of their authentication of the work.</p>



<p>NFTs as COAs is interesting because even if Verisart goes away, you&#8217;ve got an on-chain record that Verisart verified and can go along with the transaction. It future-proofs your investment when those intermediaries are no longer around. A lot of merchants don&#8217;t make it past 10, 20 years, so who will determine whether that receipt is valid if the merchant can&#8217;t authorize it?</p>



<p>Dave:<br />Yeah, interesting. Last question, around NFT market sentiment. We went through a big boom cycle. NFTs alongside DeFi were one of the two big trends driving a lot of narrative, volumes, and arguably innovation in crypto last cycle. This cycle, while we&#8217;ve seen some things emerge and become clearer, we&#8217;ve also seen the floor prices drop significantly across many blue-chip NFTs, and there&#8217;s a lot of uncertainty in the market. How do you think about that? You&#8217;re using NFTs very specifically and deliberately, rather than the popular conception of a monkey picture, but nevertheless, the broader context for NFTs must be impactful. Do you think in a year&#8217;s time we&#8217;ll be like &#8220;NFTs are so back,&#8221; or will it continue to be murky for a while longer? How do you see this sentiment resolving?</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Early internet, we had titles like Director of E-Commerce and Chief Multi-Webmaster. These terms fell by the wayside and became incorporated into tech or marketing. No one thought of online as an option; it became a must. We&#8217;ll get there with tokens and digital assets. The term NFT has been tarnished, and even Web3 has become caught up in that. When people used Facebook, they didn&#8217;t think they were on a Web2 platform; they just had a better online experience. I think we&#8217;ll get there with Web3 as well. Having a token will allow you to move more seamlessly between platforms, making the experience of being in a community or having a loyalty scheme smoother. We&#8217;re at the early stages of building that infrastructure. From an authentication standpoint, it makes sense. Token gating was complicated, but now a token allows you to do things more fluidly. Digital assets are here to stay. The language is still up in the air, whether we&#8217;ll use the term NFT in five years or just digital art or digital assets.</p>



<p>We&#8217;re still big believers. It&#8217;s been a rough ride, and floor prices have dropped, but there&#8217;s a more mature understanding of the market now. Some NFTs are surpassing their auction highs from the height of the market, particularly those artists who have crossed over into the fine art community. Generative art is here to stay, and tokens among merchants are becoming more common. We&#8217;d love your merchants to try our app on the WooCommerce store and get in touch with us directly. We do custom development for merchants but also put as much in our core product as possible. Right now, on WooCommerce, we support minting and certification. We&#8217;ll be adding additional functionality as the app evolves.</p>



<p>Dave:<br />Perfect. Thank you for letting people know where they can get ahold of you. Last question: as someone with insight into the brave new world of luxury consumerism, what&#8217;s the most unexpected luxury thing you&#8217;ve had a certificate of authentication for through Verisart?</p>



<p>Robert:<br />We have two things that were surprising. One is a very high-end watchmaker based in the Middle East. These watches are real works of art, costing more than most works of art, starting at $50,000. That was unusual for me to see such a high</p>



<p>-end product being certified on Verisart. The other is amazing calligraphy designs, carved in wood and highly intricate, also from that part of the world. We also have a Maori arts collective doing art from New Zealand. That&#8217;s the great thing about my job—we&#8217;re always seeing new ways creators and merchants find to certify their creations.</p>



<p>Dave:<br />It must be wonderful to live at that intersection between technology and art. It&#8217;s been wonderful talking to you, Robert. I&#8217;m very grateful for your time and insights.</p>



<p>Robert:<br />Likewise. Thank you for having me on your show.</p>



<p>Dave:<br />Take care.</p>
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<p>In this episode of <strong><em>Emerging Tech, All Things WordPress and WooCommerce</em></strong>, host <strong>Dave Lockie</strong> dives into the intersection of art and technology with <strong>Robert Norton, the CEO and founder of Verisart</strong>. </p>



<p>Norton shares his journey from leading Sedition Art and Saatchi Art to pioneering blockchain certification for the art and collectibles market with Verisart. The discussion explores how blockchain technology enhances trust and authenticity in the art world, the impact of NFTs, and the evolving landscape of digital and physical art. </p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Takeaways</h2>



<p><strong>Intersection of Art and Technology</strong>: Robert Norton&#8217;s journey has placed him at the crossroads of art and technology, leading to the creation of platforms like Sedition Art and Verisart.</p>



<p><strong>Blockchain for Art Authentication</strong>: Verisart leverages blockchain technology to enhance trust and authenticity in the art and collectibles market, addressing problems such as forgery and lack of transparency.</p>



<p><strong>Evolution of NFTs</strong>: Norton discusses how digital limited editions have evolved into non-fungible tokens (NFTs), and the implications for artists and the art market.</p>



<p><strong>Importance of Provenance</strong>: The concept of provenance, or the history and story of an artwork, is crucial. Verisart binds certificates, provenance, and registries together using distributed ledger technology.</p>



<p><strong>Market Sentiment and Challenges</strong>: Despite the volatility and speculative nature of the NFT market, there is growing understanding and adoption of digital assets.</p>



<p><strong>Merchants and Certification</strong>: Verisart&#8217;s integration with WooCommerce  helps merchants certify both physical and digital products, enhancing trust and value.</p>



<p><strong>Artist Engagement</strong>: NFTs and blockchain technology offer new opportunities for artists to engage directly with their collectors, although it can also bring challenges such as community management and market pressure.</p>



<p><strong>Innovative Use Cases</strong>: From high-end watches to intricate calligraphy, Verisart is being used to certify a wide range of luxury and collectible items, showcasing the versatility of blockchain technology.</p>



<p><strong>Future of Digital Assets</strong>: The conversation hints at a future where digital assets and tokens are seamlessly integrated into everyday transactions, moving beyond the hype of NFTs to practical applications.</p>



<p><strong>Personal Connection to Art</strong>: Norton&#8217;s personal background and passion for art, influenced by his family&#8217;s involvement in the art world, drive his mission to improve the authenticity and trustworthiness of art transactions.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Links</h3>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong><a href="https://woocommerce.com/products/verisart/">Verisart for WooCommerce</a></strong></li>



<li><strong><a href="https://verisart.com/">Verisart.com</a></strong></li>



<li><strong><a href="https://www.linkedin.com/in/rlnorton/">Robert on LinkedIn</a></strong></li>
</ul>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 31 Jul 2024 09:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:5;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:83:"Do The Woo Community: Onboarding for Freelance and Shop Owners with Laura Elizabeth";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"https://dothewoo.io/?p=84932";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:82:"https://dothewoo.io/onboarding-for-freelance-and-shop-owners-with-laura-elizabeth/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:54592:"<div class="wp-block-group has-border-color has-light-gray-background-color has-background has-small-font-size has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-14 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained">
<p class="has-secondary-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-9acf640b7ba38a84a982fc35d618387f">This show is sponsored by&#8230;</p>



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<img width="525" height="525" tabindex="0" src="https://i0.wp.com/dothewoo.io/wp-content/uploads/2024/03/Airwallex.jpg?resize=525%2C525&ssl=1" alt="Airwallex" class="wp-image-80258" />
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<div class="wp-block-column is-layout-flow wp-block-column-is-layout-flow">
<p class="wp-container-content-6"><strong><a href="https://www.airwallex.com/integrations/woocommerce?utm_source=701Nn000009vJ0mIAE">Airwallex</a></strong>: With <strong>Airwallex</strong> merchants are no longer forced to convert their foreign incoming payments into their home market currencies and they can use the funds to pay suppliers internationally.</p>
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<img width="500" height="500" tabindex="0" src="https://i0.wp.com/dothewoo.io/wp-content/uploads/2024/02/Omnisend-square.jpg?resize=500%2C500&ssl=1" alt="" class="wp-image-78802" />
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<p class="wp-container-content-8"><strong><a href="https://your.omnisend.com/onlywoo_dothewoo">Omnisend</a></strong>: Whether it&#8217;s for integration into your Woo product, or building sites for clients, <strong>Omnisend</strong> is the solution for email and SMS marketing with their CRM solution for WooCommerce shops and your own website.</p>
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Episode Transcript
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<p>Katie:<br />Hello and welcome to Biz Chat at Do the Woo. I&#8217;m Katie Keith from Barn2 Plugins, and today we&#8217;re going to be talking about onboarding, whether you are a freelancer wanting to improve the onboarding for new clients or whether you are an e-commerce store owner, needing to onboard customers who buy your products. To help us with this, we&#8217;ve got special guest Laura Elizabeth. Welcome, Laura.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Hi. Thank you so much for having me.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />So can you tell us a bit about yourself and what you do to start?</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Yeah, sure. So as of right now, I have a WordPress plugin called Client Portal, but my background is actually in web design. I worked at an agency for a year or so and then I branched out and did freelancing for about 10 years. Client Portal was made out of the work I was doing with my freelancing clients. So it was sort of like a mix between a project management tool and really having nothing at all. I started that back in 2016. I still take on the occasional freelancing project, but it&#8217;s pretty rare these days.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />And tell us about onboarding. Why do you think it&#8217;s so important and what got you into that as an area particularly?</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Yeah, I&#8217;ve always loved what onboarding can do for you. I was quite insecure back when I was a freelancer and I felt that having a really good onboarding process really set the stage for how the project was going to go. You can make it really repeatable and reuse it with all your clients. It just helped me because I didn&#8217;t want to go into the full agency route. I wanted to stay just as a solo freelancer. It helped me juggle multiple clients. If I had a really solid onboarding process in place, it helped my clients trust me a little bit more. When you start a project with somebody, really the beginning sets the tone for how everything&#8217;s going to go. So if I had a really solid onboarding process, it just started the project off, and by having a system in place, things started going a lot more smoothly. My clients were happier, I was happier. It just worked out a lot better.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />That makes a lot of sense because when people hire a freelancer or even an agency for their website, they&#8217;ve made the decision based on lots of things like your portfolio, the quality of your website, possibly a recommendation. But ultimately, it&#8217;s not like hiring a doctor where there&#8217;s a specific qualification. You have to prove your credibility in the early stages of the project. And I suppose if you&#8217;re kind of all over the place at the beginning and you&#8217;re not providing clear onboarding, then that might make them doubt the decision they&#8217;ve made to hire you.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />I even find that now. So now I&#8217;m more on the other side of things where I&#8217;m the client and I hire freelancers. It really does make such a difference if I hire someone and I can see they&#8217;ve got some kind of process in place. It doesn&#8217;t need to be elaborate, but if they have things they can give me where they tell me how they work, answer maybe commonly asked questions, or things like that, it just feels like they&#8217;ve done this before. Nobody wants to feel like a guinea pig or a test subject when you&#8217;re doing a client project. If I&#8217;m hiring someone, I want to feel like they do this all the time, they know how to handle the entire project no matter what it is. It could be a website project, it could be consulting, marketing, whatever. I just feel like onboarding throughout the course of the project really helps gain that trust and it just sets the whole project off from the start.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Since we are talking about the freelancer and agency side of onboarding, let&#8217;s focus on that a bit more first, and then later on we can talk about onboarding for e-commerce store owners. So can you walk me through an optimal onboarding experience for a new client project? What should that include?</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Yeah, so it kind of starts slightly before the onboarding when you are qualifying the client. I like to put quite a lot of effort into qualifying my clients because I&#8217;m sure everyone&#8217;s experienced this: you get on calls with a potential client, you give them a ton of advice, things are going really well, and then you send your proposal and they say, &#8220;Oh wait, I have a budget of $500.&#8221; And it&#8217;s just completely wasted. I feel like everyone has to learn that the hard way. So it starts with qualifying the client, and you can do that with things like intake questionnaires, the discovery call, the proposal. I actually did a lot of paid discovery sessions with my clients. I was doing it before a website redesign project. So, paid discovery is where you do essentially the whole proposal stage as a productized service. So your clients will pay you to do a proposal, which might sound a little crazy because you can imagine what client would want to pay for a proposal. But it&#8217;s kind of a consulting thing. You work with them to figure out everything they need in their business, you deliver them a report where they can take it, implement it themselves, get someone else to do it, or ideally get you to do it.</p>



<p>I found that had a ton of benefits overall, both for me and my clients, but specifically with the onboarding, it really helped because almost every client went through that same process. So it was really easy for me to create reusable assets that I would use with them. I would have a VA who would help me send the right things at the right time. It would be things like a contract, like an NDA or something like that, and then we would send different questionnaires for their business, gathering all the data, send them a getting started guide, what to expect, the payment, everything was a lot more automated. So I always think with onboarding, if you can have some kind of fixed scope project that you do at the start, it makes your job a lot easier. But even if you can&#8217;t do that, what I tend to recommend is there&#8217;s no one size fits all with onboarding. It&#8217;s really a case of laying out your process and figuring out what your client needs, what problems your clients tend to have.</p>



<p>A lot of people have issues with clients maybe micromanaging projects or scope creep or things like that that crop up during the project. Are there ways in your onboarding to help solve those? So could you say something like, it&#8217;s quite likely with big custom projects that the scope is going to change? That&#8217;s absolutely fine and we expect that. Here&#8217;s how that will work. And that&#8217;s just an example of something you could include in your onboarding to help you later down the road. I know for me, scope creep was a particularly difficult one, but I also liked to set them up in a system where they could access everything at one time, and this is kind of where Client Portal came about. I tried onboarding them into different project management tools and I would find that they were really useful for me, particularly if I was working with contractors on their project or if you&#8217;re an agency, project management tools are pretty great. But then when I&#8217;d add my client to it, they didn&#8217;t want to learn a new system, they didn&#8217;t use it, they didn&#8217;t log in. And actually, like I was saying earlier, now I&#8217;m more on the client side. I also hate being added to a project management tool because I don&#8217;t want to change anything or post anything in it because I don&#8217;t want to mess up their already perfect-looking system and I just can&#8217;t be bothered. So you end up resorting back to email.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Yeah, I totally agree. I hate it when I hire someone like, I don&#8217;t know, an SEO agency or something like that and they put me on their project management system. There are so many, it&#8217;s probably one I&#8217;ve never used before. I don&#8217;t care what their internal systems are as the client. Things like notifications become a nightmare. You don&#8217;t know how it works. You&#8217;ll ask for an update and they&#8217;ll say, &#8220;Oh, it was on this card here.&#8221; Well, I didn&#8217;t know that. And also, alternatively, you get a notification for everything. And I feel that generally adding clients to your internal project management tool is not in the client&#8217;s interest. So yeah, it&#8217;s good to have an alternative.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />And you also get that if your team is quite big, your client won&#8217;t really know who they&#8217;re supposed to be talking to. They won&#8217;t know, &#8220;Am I supposed to be replying to this? Are they not?&#8221; It just gets really overwhelming for them. And I&#8217;m similar to you, I hate being added to different project management tools, it&#8217;s just hard. I felt like project management tools weren&#8217;t really working for me. They were working for me internally. I didn&#8217;t want clients to see the kind of things I was talking about with contractors. And I&#8217;ve heard loads of horror stories as well of people who have accidentally posted something that the client can see that they maybe shouldn&#8217;t have posted. Maybe it&#8217;s about the client, I don&#8217;t really know, but there&#8217;s always the risk that&#8217;s going to happen. You&#8217;ll post something that they shouldn&#8217;t see.</p>



<p>So I thought, well, I&#8217;m not going to bother adding clients to my project management tool. But then when you take that away, if you have all these onboarding documents that you&#8217;ve created, so these getting started guides, these questionnaires, the contract invoices, whatever it might be, if you take the project management tool away, you don&#8217;t really have anything. So you tend to send these files through email. You have these really long email threads, but that really didn&#8217;t feel polished and professional enough either. And I also had the problem where clients would come back to me and say, &#8220;Where&#8217;s this file? I can&#8217;t find it. I didn&#8217;t save it, blah, blah, blah.&#8221; And that would be really complicated. So I created a portal where they could sign up on my website, log in, and just have everything there available to them. And it was totally separate from the project management tool. So it would only have the very few things</p>



<p>that a client actually needs to see and would need to access on a regular basis. And that really helped because it was sort of the middle ground between nothing and a project management tool. And I just created that in WordPress with private pages and all that kind of thing. I did eventually turn it into a product. It can be just something, a private area on your website that they can log into. And I found that was super useful for my clients.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Is that more work for the freelancer or agency because they have to populate that with, do they do things like project updates in it or simply the onboarding information?</p>



<p>Laura:<br />You can do either really. I personally prefer to keep it very simple and repeatable. So I would set up a template and it would have all their onboarding documents that were the same for every single client doing that particular project. So it would be an onboarding template or a project template for a paid discovery, for example. And then I would have a separate one if I was doing a website redesign or I would have a separate one, maybe, I don&#8217;t know, copywriting or whatever services you offer, and you just put in the stuff that is common to pretty much every client as a template. So you don&#8217;t have to recreate all that. And then however you store your deliverables, you would just link to what you&#8217;re already using. So I wouldn&#8217;t spend a lot of time uploading things to the portal. The way I thought of it at the time was like a bookmarks bar that was in a branded portal on your website that your clients could log into. So at the time I was doing websites and I would use Envision for my prototype, so I would just link to Envision. So it didn&#8217;t really take an awful lot of time, but it is something that if you do have a VA, which I pretty much recommend almost all freelancers have one if they can because it just makes life a lot easier. It&#8217;s something that they can just go in and add the odd link to it. But I always recommend keeping it as simple as possible, actually having as little in there as possible, but making sure that what&#8217;s in there are the things that your client needs to access time and time again.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />That makes sense. So you&#8217;ve referred to VAs a couple of times. It&#8217;s slightly off topic, but virtual assistants can be really useful. Do you have any tips on where to find one? Because a lot of freelancers can&#8217;t afford to hire somebody freelance, and so what are the different ways you can find somebody to help with those tasks?</p>



<p>Laura:<br />I&#8217;ve hired VAs from a few different places. The best one I had was from a website called Hawkey Handbook. I don&#8217;t actually know if it&#8217;s still around. I haven&#8217;t checked, but I think that&#8217;s what it was called. Gina taught people how to become virtual assistants and then she had a pool of people where you could post a job, and I had a virtual assistant there for years and she was really great. I&#8217;ve also tried hiring just from people I know because they&#8217;re kind of tasks that really anyone can do as long as you&#8217;ve got good processes in place. But yeah, my favorite one was the Hawkey Handbook place where I hired a VA. It can take a little bit of trial and error and hiring a VA is actually a lot of work upfront because if you don&#8217;t have systems and processes and things documented, it takes a long time to get that in place and it can take a long time to train a VA. But once you&#8217;ve found that rhythm and they work with you, they&#8217;re really invaluable, especially when working with clients. Because if you are like me, I was mostly solo but would just work with contractors. It was really hard doing the actual work, which is the bit I loved, and then dealing with new lead inquiries, keeping up to date with current clients, or even following up with leads that didn&#8217;t work out, or doing outreach, all that kind of stuff that you need to do constantly. It just takes that off your plate to have somebody as a middleman managing. For me, it was mostly email and client communication. So yeah, I think VAs are really, really important, but a big investment both time and money upfront.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Definitely. I used to use a company called Remote Staff for a VA for years because as a plugin company, I have a support team and one of my support engineers spends half her time doing VA tasks, which might be finance or marketing or general admin or whatever. So I found that good. They were already trained in our products from doing support. They do VA tasks as well and it gives them more insights into different parts of the business and things. So there&#8217;s lots of ways you can get them without doing a traditional job advert to hire someone if that&#8217;s not in budget.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />And you don&#8217;t even need to hire full-time as well. I only ever had one full-time VA, and I found it was actually a bit much. At the minute, I&#8217;m similar to you. I have a support person who does some VA tasks and I think they only do a couple of hours a day and really that&#8217;s enough to just get through your inbox and do whatever recurring tasks need to be done. I think two hours a day minimum will get you through most client communication things that you might need to do.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Yeah, I find it really helpful to write a list of what I actually do before hiring somebody, because sometimes when you group your tasks, it&#8217;s not what you think. So when I do it, actually I need a finance assistant and a marketing assistant and very little general admin. So I might go for a general VA when that&#8217;s not the skillset I need. So it is useful to actually write down what you do. You may not have an understanding of that.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Yeah, that&#8217;s a good point actually. Time track maybe.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Yeah, exactly. All of that.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Yeah.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />So let&#8217;s get back to onboarding. We went on a useful tangent then. We&#8217;ve talked about onboarding for clients who you are providing services for. So let&#8217;s move on and talk a bit about onboarding for e-commerce stores. And it&#8217;s something you may not really think of because let&#8217;s say if someone buys a pair of shoes or something on a website, they probably don&#8217;t need any onboarding, but there are e-commerce products that do need some kind of support and communication from that company after making a purchase. An example might be a membership site where they&#8217;re joining some kind of a club with an ongoing relationship. It might be that they&#8217;ve booked an event and they need information in the run-up to that event and the date of it or any kind of product that needs some kind of special advice or instructions for the customer to use it, which aren&#8217;t shipped with the product, which happens in various industries. So do you have any advice about the email side of things? I know you and I have previously talked on a different podcast about your expertise in email marketing. Do you have any advice about how email might play a part in onboarding for e-commerce store owners?</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Funnily enough, I recently bought some shoes and their onboarding was pretty good. They were running trainers or sneakers.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />You needed onboarding for shoes, fine.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Yeah, it&#8217;s funny because you say they didn&#8217;t need onboarding for shoes, but these were specifically running shoes, so it kind of makes sense if they were just regular shoes, probably not. But it was quite nice because they sent a follow-up sequence of just different things about how to care for running shoes, how often to replace them, and tips on running as well because presumably if you&#8217;re buying running shoes, you&#8217;re probably a runner. And so I thought that was quite helpful. But I think with onboarding for emails, it&#8217;s actually a really difficult thing to get right, because as you know, inboxes are just full right now and everything you buy, there&#8217;s a lot of emails that come after you always get added to the newsletter. It&#8217;s quite overwhelming. So the first thing I would say about that is to make sure you&#8217;re not sending a newsletter at the same time you&#8217;re sending onboarding. But with onboarding emails, I think one thing I really like that I&#8217;ve seen, this is more for SaaS software, are people who send the odd email. I think it&#8217;s maybe once a week I would say getting the timing right is important and it&#8217;s very, very short and it&#8217;s one very small tip that I could read in a few seconds about using whatever software that I&#8217;ve just signed up for.</p>



<p>And I think that&#8217;s really great. That&#8217;s actually something I want to put into my own onboarding because I have, for Client Portal, I have a getting started guide and a few little things like that. I have a new customer survey because it&#8217;s always good to try if you can, to learn about people who have just bought. So it&#8217;s finding that balance between things that you would find useful as the business owner, plus what your customers would find useful. But yeah, I really like these new SaaS companies who are just sending these little tips specifically in software that are probably really obvious to the founder or people who use it regularly. It could be like a keyboard shortcut or just some really basic feature that just makes your life a lot easier. I think that&#8217;s really nice because I don&#8217;t think people are reading emails, they&#8217;re getting so many and I don&#8217;t think they&#8217;re reading them. They&#8217;re as focused when they&#8217;re reading them as they maybe were a few years ago, at least in my experience. So yeah, that&#8217;s something I would try, but I haven&#8217;t tested it, so I don&#8217;t actually know.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />I really like that. Keeping it short, as you say, people do get email overwhelmed, but it is an opportunity still. With our plugins, we&#8217;ve created a unique sequence in MailChimp for each of our plugins, similar to what you said, but probably not as brief. So I will look at that. For example, if someone buys our WooCommerce product options plugin, then we&#8217;ll send an automated email straight away with instructions on how to set it up. After three days, we send a check</p>



<p>-in email, how are you getting on? Here&#8217;s a video, here&#8217;s some extra links to resources in case you&#8217;re stuck, how to contact us, those kinds of things. With running shoes, if you&#8217;re happy with them pretty quickly, you&#8217;re going to keep using them and when they wear out, hopefully buy from the same company. But with WordPress, we have an annual subscription, so we need the customer to renew after one year and two years, which means that to encourage renewals, we want to have an ongoing relationship with the customer, which is largely automated of course. So our emails after the first couple of weeks slow down and there might be one every two or three months, and then they might speed up a bit shortly before each renewal. And like you mentioned, we provide tips. So for WooCommerce product options, an email after four months might talk about lesser-used features. You know, you could set a maximum quantity of how many pizza toppings the customer can buy or something like that, or did you know about this extra way of pricing your product options and things that they might not know to help them get more value out of it? And then we might sneak in a marketing email every now and then recommending a related product, but that shouldn&#8217;t be the main thing of course.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Yeah, I do something similar. I actually have found it quite hard to time emails up to renewal time because people could maybe upgrade their license or do different things throughout that process, and I found it quite hard from a technical perspective to set that up. So I tend to have an onboarding sequence that&#8217;s the same for everybody. It&#8217;s fortunate for me because I only have one plugin as opposed to multiple, and it&#8217;s all serving a similar audience. After the onboarding sequence, it just goes into my general monthly, or it&#8217;s not always monthly, newsletter where I&#8217;ll share a new example or a new case study or something like that. But I really want to have something in place that&#8217;s more akin to when it&#8217;s getting close to their renewal date. I just haven&#8217;t found a way to actually implement that yet.</p>



<p>But I do also do a little bit of upselling as well because I created a sister company from Client Portal. One thing I found was people loved the portal, but they were having trouble putting together these getting started guides and these intake questionnaires, they didn&#8217;t know what to put in them. Whereas I did create portal templates, the portal templates didn&#8217;t include content. So I created a sister company that has these templates that have all the exact wording that I would use with my clients. They&#8217;re nicely designed but easily editable, that kind of thing. So after, I think it&#8217;s about six weeks or so, I do a little mini promotion for that and then give customers a discount if they want to buy that. But it is kind of a separate company, it&#8217;s still mine. So I think there&#8217;s room to upsell people. I think it&#8217;s just important to upsell them for something that they genuinely would be interested in rather than just whatever you have. Have you identified another problem that these customers tend to have that you could solve with a different product and upsell them on that? I think that&#8217;s quite a good way, and I&#8217;ve never had any backlash about doing that because, like I say, it&#8217;s something people genuinely want, so they&#8217;re quite happy to receive those emails.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Absolutely. I&#8217;ve got, I think, 19 premium plugins now, and we only upsell closely related ones. So say someone&#8217;s bought a WooCommerce restaurant plugin, a lot of them sell things like pizzas or burgers that need extra toppings, which you can do with our product options plugin. So we&#8217;ll email the restaurant customers not saying, have you heard about WooCommerce product options? It&#8217;s great. We will say, do you want to sell extra toppings and charge for them for your pizzas and burgers and so on, and be really, really specific. And those emails get quite a good conversion rate. In fact, we have an email that we send about a week after purchase, which recommend handpicked products based on what they bought, and that does quite well at getting that second purchase in.</p>



<p>But let&#8217;s talk a bit about tools. So I&#8217;ve mentioned that we use MailChimp to send that, but there are other things as well. Obviously, there are many competitors to MailChimp, and whichever email marketing platform you use, you can integrate with your WooCommerce website. There&#8217;s also a WooCommerce plugin that I really like. It used to be called follow-ups, and then it got merged into a plugin called Automate Woo. It&#8217;s on WooCommerce.com, and you can use that to send different emails to your customers based on what products they bought. So if you have running shoes, for example, then instead of doing it through your email platform, you could do it through your WooCommerce store and have a different product as the trigger for each email. So that&#8217;s quite good. We actually do ours through Recapture because we sell through Easy Digital Downloads rather than WooCommerce and hardly anything integrates with that, which is really frustrating. So we use Recapture for our abandoned cart software and also for our follow-up emails that recommend related products and things. So there&#8217;s lots of tools. What do you use, Laura?</p>



<p>Laura:<br />My tooling has changed a little bit. I use ConvertKit for my emails, and then I did use Easy Digital Downloads, but I&#8217;ve actually just migrated completely over to Freemius, and that&#8217;s really nice because it has all the abandoned cart features built in. It&#8217;s actually got a lot of the email built in as well. So I&#8217;m putting a pause on my ConvertKit onboarding to just test out what they have out of the box because they say they do a lot of testing with the emails and try to time them quite well and do all that kind of stuff. So I&#8217;m just having a look at that at the minute. Talking about personalization. One tool I really like, and I have to say I&#8217;m a bit biased, this is my husband&#8217;s company, but he runs a company called Right Message, and that&#8217;s really nice because what it allows you to do is if you have, say, so I would have for Client Portal, maybe I&#8217;d have agencies or freelancers, we have law firms, accountants, all those different industries,</p>



<p>I can learn about different subscribers in ConvertKit and then change content on my website based on what I know about them. So for example, if I had a landing page and I was talking to an accountant via email, if they clicked through to my website, I could change the wording to speak more to accountants. And that&#8217;s been really fun to play around with just to make the whole experience more personal. One really easy example actually is if someone&#8217;s already on your email list and they go to your website, instead of seeing a popup to join your email list, which is annoying for a customer, but also annoying for you because you can end up with duplicate subscribers, they&#8217;ll see something else, so they might see nothing at all, or you could change it to be a popup for them to leave a review or join your affiliate program or something like that. So you can change what they&#8217;re seeing on your website based on what you know about them and where they are in your funnel, which is pretty nice. But other than that, I keep my tooling pretty simple. It&#8217;s mostly just Freemius, ConvertKit, Right Message, and that&#8217;s about it, I think.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Yeah, makes sense. About two months ago, I think we had Paul Halfpenny from the PersonalizeWP plugin on this show, and we talked about different personalization strategies and there&#8217;s a lot you can do, but we talked mostly about pre-sales, but that is a good point about onboarding as well, so that when customers log in, you can show them different information based on various factors. So there&#8217;s a lot you can do with that, which is quite a kind of modern approach that WordPress is just kind of starting to discover fairly recently, I would say.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Yeah, it&#8217;s kind of crazy what you can do now. It&#8217;s a bit scary sometimes, but it&#8217;s fun to play around with. I think the thing that you can get caught up on is sometimes you can go a little bit deep on it and do a little bit too much, and the more complexity you add, I&#8217;ve learned this the hard way, eventually something&#8217;s probably going to break or go wrong and it can be really hard to untangle it. So I really try my hardest to keep things as simple as possible, but stuff like that is just really fun to play around with and it does really work as well. So yeah, it&#8217;s good.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Yeah, I&#8217;d suggest focusing on the biggest wins there. So not every possible customer&#8217;s use case needs to have personalized content. Maybe pick out your biggest use cases that you get the most sales from and create targeted content for those that&#8217;s going to have the most impact without being ridiculously complex.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Yeah, exactly. And just testing it as well, just making sure it works. It should work. Anything that&#8217;s more personalized should work. But yeah, it&#8217;s always good to test as much as you can,</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Which is kind of hard because you have to replicate the environment it&#8217;s targeted for, don&#8217;t you?</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Yeah, it&#8217;s really hard. I find testing it is a lot easier. The higher volume of everything you have, the easier testing becomes just because you get to see trends. If you don&#8217;t have a ton of traffic or you don&#8217;t have a ton of customers, it can be really hard to know why certain things happen. Is it a seasonal lull, for example? It&#8217;s like July right now, so it&#8217;s historically not a great month for, well, really a lot of people, everyone&#8217;s on holiday. It&#8217;s just so hard to know unless you&#8217;ve got a really big company to easily see those trends. But it&#8217;s still good to try and keep an eye on it if you can, but just not get too focused on the details, not looking every day, looking at trends maybe across months or even years sometimes.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Absolutely. It&#8217;s easy to panic if you have a drop in sales over the short term and you need to wait until it&#8217;s statistically significant, if I can say that.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />It&#8217;s hard because unless you track this data every year, so I&#8217;ve recently started keeping a spreadsheet of, and I&#8217;ve only done it for the last three years, but it is really useful. January is a particularly good month for me. Obviously, November is good, the summer is less good, and it&#8217;s interesting to see, and I know that every year I&#8217;ve probably had the same level of panic during the lower months that if I&#8217;d have just kept an eye on these trends, I might not have needed to panic so much. It just kind of happens.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Definitely. Last month we had Bryce Adams from Metorik on talking about reporting and how to get better data out of your online store because people often are having to create spreadsheets and things like that, whereas you should just have it at the click of a button. It&#8217;s kind of crazy how bad the reporting and things like WooCommerce and Easy Digital Downloads is straight out of the box, so you do need extra plugins and SaaS and so on to give you what you need or build it yourself.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Yeah, exactly. I find it hard with Easy Digital Downloads. I felt like they changed things quite a lot and I was never sure if the numbers were the same, but I do actually find no matter how good the reporting is, I do find something really useful about putting it into a spreadsheet each month because it forces me to really look at it and see where it&#8217;s changed. That might just be a me thing though.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Everyone works with data in different ways and so on. We ended up building our own custom system for Easy Digital Downloads to give us the data we needed because it was just so difficult. And then we found out this week that they changed something a few months ago that had broken all of our data, so we thought we had a massive drop in sales and a massive increase in renewals, but they had just changed internally how they classified sales and renewals. So it was a definition change, and we spent ages trying to work out why this would have happened. So again, never easy.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Yeah, that&#8217;s a nightmare.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Another aspect of onboarding, which I think people often forget about is the sequence that happens when the customer places an order and immediately afterwards. Since this is Do the Woo, I&#8217;ll use WooCommerce as an example. With WooCommerce, you have built-in emails and order statuses, and then when you change the order status, it triggers an email. I often find the default ones really unhelpful. I know Woo is actually working on this at the moment and thinking about how to improve the order statuses and the corresponding emails, but I ordered, I think it was a Woo T-shirt actually customized with the logo. So I received the email saying, thank you for your order. Fine. It said when it would ship. Fine. Then I received it, and then about a week later I received an order completed email from them. I&#8217;m like, hang on, I&#8217;ve already got it. I don&#8217;t care that you&#8217;ve marked it as complete on your system. And it wasn&#8217;t about me as the customer. I think that all store owners should think about things like these statuses. Another one is when you order a digital product in WooCommerce, it will set it to processing and send an email, and then you have to manually set it to completed, which sends another email. But of course, a digital product has been served automatically at the time they place the order, and so they don&#8217;t need another email. So you have to use a plugin order status manager to disable the completed email and all that stuff. So I&#8217;d say test it and think about your customer. Would you add anything to that, Laura?</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Just that it&#8217;s always a good idea to periodically go through and buy your own product, just do a test purchase or something and just see what happens because things do change a lot. Even like you said, with the Easy Digital Downloads changing something, you never know what&#8217;s going to change. I recently did that and I found that all my images in the emails were coming out really massive. I guess ConvertKit had changed something or something had happened, but you just don&#8217;t know until you&#8217;ve gone through it as the customer. And that&#8217;s where you can really easily find those things where you&#8217;re getting these emails where orders are being set from process to complete and then they&#8217;re getting a notification you can go in and just hopefully turn that off. But yeah, that&#8217;s probably the best way to do it. I would say, maybe every six months, just go in and do a test purchase.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />You&#8217;ll probably be surprised at how many emails your poor customers are receiving because they get one from PayPal if they use PayPal and all the ones from your website. And you might have a per-product email with instructions for that particular product all at the same time. So you need to think how annoying is that for people as well?</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Yeah, exactly. You get five emails at once that hopefully you can condense into just one email, which would be perfect.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />You mentioned earlier about the subsequent emails and making sure, say, your newsletter doesn&#8217;t go out at the same time as onboarding emails. I think that&#8217;s good advice on an ongoing basis too.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Yeah, exactly. There&#8217;s a lot you can optimize, and it can, like I say, get messy. Even simple systems can get messy really quickly depending on different customers if they use a different email address. I know you can&#8217;t account for every edge case, but I went down the rabbit hole years ago of doing some really cool things with email marketing, but I&#8217;ve drastically cut it back now just to make sure that everyone&#8217;s getting a similar experience and that I have a bit more control over what they&#8217;re seeing. So I&#8217;m not sending any emails out by mistake or anything like that.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />It can be a lot of work to keep all your emails up to date. We&#8217;ve got hundreds of automated emails because we have a sequence for each product, and I know they&#8217;re not as up to date as they should be.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />I think a lot of people document, they have a master document of all of their sequences, and I started putting that together for mine as well, just to keep somewhere completely separate, just in a Google Doc or something, to just write down the process. This is similar to the client onboarding as well. It&#8217;s how I got started with it. Just bullet point every single touch point with either the client or the customer in as minute detail as possible, as many different edge cases as possible, and then just try to figure out what the ideal most smooth process would look like, whether that&#8217;s creating email sequences, whether it&#8217;s creating templates or even just templated emails using text expand or something like that just for these commonly repeatable tasks that happen within your process. I think it&#8217;s really useful. Just spending, it can take an hour, maybe if that, and it&#8217;s super, super valuable.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />I have a Google Doc with a list of all our emails and when they&#8217;re sent so that we can see it in one place, but that doesn&#8217;t have the content of the emails, so it&#8217;s still a big job to update them.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />And you have to remember to update when I make an update somewhere, update it elsewhere as well, which can be hard.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Before we finish, let&#8217;s talk about measuring the success of your onboarding. Do you have any advice on how to track the effectiveness of your onboarding efforts and what you might look at to judge what you&#8217;re doing?</p>



<p>Laura:<br />On the WordPress plugin side, I mostly look at refund rates. I think if I do a good job of onboarding, my refund rates go down. I have actually found recently my refund rates have decreased by quite a lot. In part, it&#8217;s due to the fact that we did completely overhaul the product, and it now uses the block editor and it&#8217;s really, really nice. But another thing that I did was I put an awful lot of effort into the getting started video, and I used feedback that we&#8217;ve had from customers, common questions where customers have got stuck, things that seem really obvious to me as the creator of the product that weren&#8217;t clearly obvious to the customers. I&#8217;ve then included it in the video, and I spent a long time making this video as good as it can be and just improving that onboarding process.</p>



<p>And now, I don&#8217;t know, unfortunately, whether the refund rate has reduced because of the new product or the onboarding or a combination of both. But I have noticed anecdotally that we are getting far fewer support requests from people who are just struggling to get started with the product. So I don&#8217;t handle support myself, but I do keep an eye on it. Most days. I try and just see what people are asking, and I get my support person to do a weekly report with any issues, common themes of issues people had, and virtually none since we released it. I think in, I want to say April are how do I get started? And we actually did used to get that quite commonly before then. So that&#8217;s kind of how I measure it. Like I said, it&#8217;s quite a small company, it&#8217;s not a massive company, so I can&#8217;t do a ton with analytics and stuff. But yeah, I just keep an eye on refund rates and then just my general support in that respect. And then for client onboarding, it&#8217;s similar to that, but even more extreme.</p>



<p>You could have hundreds of customers, but maybe a dozen clients or something. So it&#8217;s harder to manage and to really know, but generally you&#8217;re talking to clients, so you&#8217;re getting a feel for, are there any assumptions that they had that were perhaps wrong? If so, maybe you could fix that in your onboarding. Do they say, &#8220;Wow, I&#8217;m really enjoying working with you. This is really great.&#8221; That&#8217;s something that can give you an indication as to whether it&#8217;s done correctly. One other thing I do with clients actually is I tend to send out a</p>



<p>questionnaire when the project&#8217;s only just started, and it&#8217;s similar to the questionnaire that you&#8217;d send at the end to get their feedback, but I do it more towards the beginning and find out how it&#8217;s going so far. Generally, clients are pretty excited, and that gives me a really good indication of how did they find the onboarding experience? Was it good? Was it great? Was there any improvements? That kind of thing&#8217;s helpful. So yeah, I just track it really, I guess anecdotally is the best way to say it.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />I think that works for clients in particular. If they&#8217;re asking questions that you should have told them, if they&#8217;re asking really basic questions about the process, expectations, anything like that, then that&#8217;s a problem with your onboarding, isn&#8217;t it?</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Yeah, exactly. And there&#8217;s always ways you can fix that, especially if it&#8217;s common things. I think I mentioned earlier scope creep for me was always the biggest one. It always happened, and I hadn&#8217;t set that expectation. I put together a proposal and it was fairly detailed, but something had changed. It may not have been the client&#8217;s fault, it may not have been my fault, but something has changed. Well, who&#8217;s responsible for taking on that extra cost? Is it me? Is it the client? And if you have these conversations in the early stages, it just makes things a lot easier further down the road when you&#8217;re inevitably going to hit these roadblocks that everyone experiences when working with clients.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Yeah, scope creeps a good one because everybody deals with it. I find the best way to handle it is one, to make it clear what was included, as you say, through clear documentation and proposal and all of that. And then when the customer does ask for something that wasn&#8217;t in the scope, I think it&#8217;s nice to be kind of positive. Well, that&#8217;s a great idea. I think that&#8217;s a really big improvement to what we have planned. Let me cost it out for you. You haven&#8217;t said no, that&#8217;s not included, have you as a positive? No.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Yeah, that&#8217;s exactly what I would do as well is I would say I would always start with yes. So I talk in a lot of Facebook groups with freelancers and agencies, and it&#8217;s really interesting to see it as a third party where a client, there&#8217;s a bit of scope route going on, a client needs something else, and the freelancer is already assuming that the client is going to be really annoyed if you charge them any more for it. But the client has not indicated that they&#8217;re annoyed. I&#8217;ve worked with people and the scope increased, and I have, in my head, I&#8217;m thinking, of course the price is going to go up. I shouldn&#8217;t need to say that&#8217;s obviously going to happen, but the freelancer could then go into this spiral of this is going to be a massive conflict. And they start with, I did say in the proposal it was going to include this, this and this. This wasn&#8217;t included. I&#8217;m not going to do it. Whereas if you just say, oh, great idea, yeah, it&#8217;ll be an extra blah or Let me cost it out, or whatever you say, but I think that&#8217;s a great thing to do. I think I&#8217;ve never had pushback when I just said it like that, or if I have, it would be not a conflict, but more just like, actually, let&#8217;s just wait on that and maybe do that later, or something like that.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Yeah, the time you get pushback is when you don&#8217;t tell them straight away. So if you send them a higher bill than expected at the end of the project, that can be a disaster. And I&#8217;ve made that mistake and lost a lot of money and had very unhappy customers in the past through when we were doing web design work. So you need to be clear before there are extra costs, but matter of fact about it, they probably assumed you would charge extra anyway.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Yeah, it&#8217;s actually very similar to how I deal with my three-year-old. I&#8217;ve noticed that if she wants something, and if I say no, if it&#8217;s a, if I say no, the second she asks for it, there tends to be not really much of a meltdown. Whereas if I dance around the subject and I sort of maybe give excuses or reasons and then eventually say no further down the line, that&#8217;s when full on meltdown happens that I think it&#8217;s kind of similar when just dealing with anyone, if it&#8217;s don&#8217;t string people along, get their hopes up or whatever. And then even if you&#8217;re in the right, dump something on them at the last minute, just be really upfront, professional, positive, calm, and just not defensive. And then things just generally, in my experience anyway, seem to just work out a lot better.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for this, Laura. It&#8217;s been great, and I think we&#8217;ve covered a lot of really concrete advice that people can hopefully go away and implement in their own businesses. So where can people find you online?</p>



<p>Laura:<br />I am mostly around on Twitter, so it&#8217;s @LauraLizDunn. If you want to check out Client Portal, the website&#8217;s clientportal.io. That&#8217;s pretty much where I&#8217;m at. Not on LinkedIn yet, but I am probably about to sign up. Apparently that&#8217;s the place to be.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Everyone&#8217;s talking about it, but I just can&#8217;t bear the idea of another social media.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />I know. I do have an account. I just haven&#8217;t logged in since I was in university.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Same. Yeah. Yeah, neglecting account. Well, thank you so much. You&#8217;ve been an amazing guest and thanks to everybody who&#8217;s watching as well or listening.</p>



<p>Laura:<br />Lovely. Thank you so much. Bye.</p>



<p>Katie:<br />Bye.</p>
</div>




<p>In this episode of <strong><em>Woo BizChat</em></strong>, host <strong>Katie Keith</strong>  is joined by special guest <strong>Laura Elizabeth, the founder of Client Portal</strong>, to have a conversation on the crucial topic of onboarding. </p>



<p>Whether you&#8217;re a freelancer seeking to refine your client onboarding process or an e-commerce store owner looking to effectively onboard your customers, this discussion offers valuable insights and practical tips. Laura shares her extensive experience and strategies for creating a smooth, professional onboarding experience that sets the stage for successful projects and satisfied clients. </p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Takeaways</h2>



<p><strong>Importance of Onboarding</strong>: Onboarding sets the tone for the entire project, establishing trust and clarity from the start. A well-structured onboarding process can help manage client expectations and reduce issues like scope creep.</p>



<p><strong>Pre-Onboarding Qualification</strong>: It’s important to qualify clients before onboarding to ensure alignment on budget and project scope. Tools like intake questionnaires and discovery calls can save time and prevent misunderstandings.</p>



<p><strong>Using Templates</strong>: Creating reusable templates for onboarding documents such as getting started guides, questionnaires, and contracts can streamline the process and ensure consistency.</p>



<p><strong>Client Portal Benefits</strong>: A client portal can serve as a centralized place for clients to access essential documents and project information, reducing the need for extensive email communication and improving the client experience.</p>



<p><strong>Email Onboarding for Ecommerce</strong>: For ecommerce stores, email sequences can play a significant role in onboarding. Short, valuable tips and personalized content can enhance customer engagement and satisfaction.</p>



<p><strong>Testing and Optimization</strong>: Regularly testing the onboarding process by going through it as a customer can highlight areas for improvement. Keeping the process simple and focused on the client’s needs is essential.</p>



<p><strong>Measuring Success</strong>: Key metrics like refund rates and support request volumes can indicate the effectiveness of the onboarding process. Gathering feedback early in the project can also provide valuable insights for improvement.</p>



<p><strong>Handling Scope Creep</strong>: Addressing scope changes positively and transparently can help manage client expectations and avoid conflicts. Clearly communicating additional costs upfront is crucial.</p>



<p><strong>Personalization</strong>: Personalizing content based on customer data can significantly improve engagement and relevance. This can be applied to both email communication and website content.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading">Links</h3>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong><a href="https://x.com/lauraelizdunn">Laura on X</a></strong></li>



<li><a href="https://client-portal.io/"><strong>Client Portal</strong></a></li>



<li><strong><a href="https://client-portal.io/email-course/">Free Ebook and Course</a></strong></li>



<li><strong><a href="https://fullybookedva.com/virtual-assistant-finder/">Fully Booked VA</a></strong></li>
</ul>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 30 Jul 2024 09:02:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:6;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:55:"Gravatar: Mastering Decentralized Identity for Business";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:32:"http://blog.gravatar.com/?p=1748";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:71:"https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/07/30/decentralized-identity-management/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:21120:"<p>Imagine having complete control over your personal identity information without relying on a centralized authority. Well, that’s absolutely possible with decentralized identity management – an innovative system that allows individuals to own, control, and manage their identity data.</p>



<p>So, how does it work?&nbsp;</p>



<p>Decentralized identity management uses cutting-edge technologies like blockchain to distribute identity data across a network. By doing so, it enhances security and ensures that no single entity has complete control over sensitive information. Users can selectively share specific identity attributes using cryptographic keys and digital wallets, giving them granular control over what personal information is disclosed and to whom.</p>



<p>In this article, we&#8217;ll explore the key benefits, real-world applications, and technological advancements driving this revolutionary approach. And if you&#8217;re wondering how to implement decentralized profile management on your website, we&#8217;ve got you covered with a closer look at <a href="https://gravatar.com/">Gravatar</a>.&nbsp;</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Importance of decentralized identity management for businesses</strong></h2>



<p>Businesses face many challenges when managing customer identities. From data breaches to identity theft, the risks are real and can have devastating consequences. Decentralized identity management offers a secure and efficient means of user control, though this involves effective implementation through navigating technical complexities, regulatory uncertainties, and user adoption hurdles.</p>



<p>Let’s look at the full benefits of decentralized identity management!</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong>Enhanced security and fraud prevention: </strong>By distributing personal identifiers across a network, decentralized systems make it incredibly difficult for hackers to access and steal sensitive information. Even if one node in the network is compromised, the data remains safe, as it&#8217;s not stored in a central location. This added layer of security helps businesses protect their customers&#8217; data and reduces the risk of costly data breaches.</li>



<li><strong>Regulatory compliance: </strong>With strict data protection laws like the <a href="https://gdpr-info.eu/" rel="nofollow">General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR)</a> and the <a href="https://oag.ca.gov/privacy/ccpa" rel="nofollow">California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA)</a> in place, companies must be transparent about how they handle customer data. Decentralized systems make this easier by giving users control over their personal information, such as deciding what data to share and with whom.</li>



<li><strong>Operational efficiency:</strong> In traditional systems, businesses often waste time and resources on repetitive verification processes. With decentralized identity, they are replaced with fixed audit trails and verifiable credentials, which are much more efficient. Companies can quickly and easily verify customer identities without the need for redundant checks, saving time and money in the long run.</li>



<li><strong>Building trust and loyalty with customers: </strong>By giving people control over their personal data, companies show that they value privacy and are committed to protecting sensitive information. This level of transparency and respect can go a long way in fostering long-lasting relationships with users, ultimately leading to increased retention and loyalty. </li>
</ul>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Importance of decentralized identity management for users and customers</strong></h2>



<p>Decentralized identity management is becoming more important as users seek greater control over their personal information. However, there’s much more to it than that.&nbsp;</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong>Interoperability:</strong> Standardized protocols allow identity data to be used across various services. Users don&#8217;t need multiple accounts or to go through repeated verification checks, which reduces hassle and makes the online experience smoother.</li>



<li><strong>Security against identity theft: </strong>Decentralized identity systems provide strong security features. These systems protect users from identity theft and fraud. By reducing reliance on centralized databases, the risk of data breaches decreases.</li>



<li><strong>Enhanced user experience: </strong>Users can enjoy a more streamlined experience. No need to remember multiple usernames and passwords. Logging into different services becomes quicker and more convenient.</li>



<li><strong>Control over personal data: </strong>Users have the power to manage their own identity information. They can decide how much data to share and with whom. This approach reduces the risk of personal data misuse and enhances privacy.</li>
</ul>



<p>One example is signing up for a new service online. Traditionally, this involves creating a new account, verifying email addresses, and setting up passwords. With decentralized identity management, users can leverage their existing identity credentials to sign up, saving time and effort.</p>



<p>Decentralized identity management is an incredible technical innovation that changes how people interact with digital services. By putting control back into the hands of users, it promises a future where personal data is more secure and user experiences are more enjoyable. And that&#8217;s something worth looking forward to.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Centralized vs. decentralized identity management</strong></h2>



<p>Understanding the differences between centralized and decentralized identity management systems can help businesses and users make informed decisions.&nbsp;</p>



<p></p>



<table class="has-contrast-background-color has-background has-fixed-layout"><tbody><tr><td><strong>Aspect</strong></td><td><strong>Centralized identity management</strong></td><td><strong>Decentralized identity management</strong></td></tr><tr><td><strong>Control</strong></td><td>Controlled by one entity, meaning users rely on this entity to manage their identity data.</td><td>Users have control over their identity information, distributing authority and reducing dependency on a single organization.</td></tr><tr><td><strong>Security</strong></td><td>Vulnerable to data breaches because all data is stored in one place. If that central database is compromised, all stored identities are at risk.</td><td>Spreads the data across multiple points, making it harder for hackers to access all information. This reduces the chance of a large-scale data breach.</td></tr><tr><td><strong>Scalability</strong></td><td>Easier to scale within a company&#8217;s existing infrastructure since it relies on a singular, controlled environment.</td><td>Scaling decentralized systems involves challenges such as ensuring network size doesn&#8217;t affect performance and maintaining interoperability between different Decentralized Identifiers (DIDs).</td></tr></tbody></table>



<p></p>



<p>For example, if a large company&#8217;s central database is hacked, all user data could be compromised. In contrast, a decentralized system&#8217;s distributed nature means that even if one node is breached, the overall impact is minimized.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Decentralized vs. federated vs. self-sovereign identities</strong></h2>



<p>Navigating the different types of identity systems can be tricky. Let&#8217;s break down the differences between decentralized, federated, and self-sovereign identities.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Decentralized identity</strong></h3>



<p>Users own and control their identity without intermediaries, and their data is not stored in a single central location, reducing the risks of breaches. This system is gaining traction as data privacy and security become more critical in the digital economy.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Federated identity</strong></h3>



<p>Here, multiple organizations allow the same identity credentials to access various services, so the user data is somewhat centralized, but it’s still spread across the entities involved. It’s very similar to using your social media account to log into different apps and websites – convenient but involves sharing your data with multiple entities.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Self-sovereign identity</strong></h3>



<p>This is an extension of decentralized identity, where users have minimal reliance on any secondary parties for their identity management. They decide when and with whom to share data, and no third party holds their information.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Applications of decentralized identity management</strong></h2>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Online authentication</strong></h3>



<p>Decentralized identity systems enable users to securely authenticate their identities when accessing various online services. Instead of relying on a central authority to manage their identity data, users can prove their identity using cryptographic keys associated with their decentralized identifiers.&nbsp;</p>



<p>This approach enhances security by reducing the risk of data breaches. For example, logging into an online service with a DID means your identity is verified without exposing sensitive information to potential hackers.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Government registries</strong></h3>



<p>Government registries can issue digital versions of traditional IDs, such as passports or driver&#8217;s licenses. Imagine having a digital credential that verifies your age or nationality without needing to disclose your full identity.&nbsp;</p>



<p>This can be particularly useful for online age verification or when proving residency for government services. By using decentralized identity systems, governments can streamline verification processes while improving privacy and security for their citizens.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Educational institutions</strong></h3>



<p>Universities and colleges can act as issuers by providing digital credentials that verify educational achievements. For example, a university could issue a credential that confirms an individual&#8217;s degree. This can be used when applying for jobs or further education, making the verification process more efficient and secure.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Instead of sending physical transcripts or certificates, individuals can share their verified credentials instantly and securely with potential employers or educational institutions.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Financial Institutions</strong></h3>



<p>Similarly, banks and other financial institutions can issue their own credentials that verify financial information, such as creditworthiness or account ownership. These digital credentials can streamline the process and enhance security when applying for loans or conducting high-value transactions.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Just like with universities, instead of providing physical documents to prove account ownership, customers can present a digital credential issued by their bank. This reduces paperwork and speeds up transactions while maintaining high levels of security.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Understanding key technologies in decentralized identity management</strong></h2>



<p>Decentralized identity management relies on several cutting-edge technologies that focus on security, privacy, and user control. Let’s take a look:</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Web 3.0</strong></h3>



<p>The internet is evolving into Web 3.0, with a shift that brings decentralized applications and services to the forefront.&nbsp;</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong>User empowerment: </strong>Unlike earlier versions of the internet, where big companies controlled most data, Web 3.0 gives users control over their own digital identity. This enhances privacy and ownership as users decide what information to share and with whom.</li>



<li><strong>Infrastructure support: </strong>Web 3.0 provides the necessary infrastructure for decentralized identifiers and verifiable credentials. These tools let users manage their identities securely without needing a central authority.</li>
</ul>



<p>For example, logging into different online services can be done using a single, user-controlled identity, improving security and convenience. Web 3.0 makes this possible, creating a more secure and user-friendly online experience.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Blockchain</strong></h3>



<p>Blockchain technology is fundamental to decentralized identity systems. Here&#8217;s why:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong>Immutable and distributed nature:</strong> Blockchain is a distributed ledger that records transactions in an immutable and secure way. Each block contains a cryptographic hash of the previous block, ensuring the integrity of the entire chain.</li>



<li><strong>Security and trust: </strong>Blockchain&#8217;s decentralized nature means there&#8217;s no single point of failure, making it highly secure. Transactions recorded there are transparent and verifiable by all participants, fostering trust.</li>



<li><strong>Platforms: </strong>Blockchain platforms like <a href="https://ethereum.org/en/" rel="nofollow">Ethereum</a> support decentralized applications (dApps) that are essential for identity management. These platforms provide the infrastructure for creating and managing DIDs and verifiable credentials.</li>
</ul>



<p>For instance, Ethereum&#8217;s smart contract functionality lets you create complex identity management systems that operate autonomously and transparently.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Cryptography</strong></h3>



<p>Cryptographic techniques like hashing and public-key cryptography are essential for protecting data. Hashing converts data into a fixed-size string of characters that is unique to the original data. Public-key cryptography, on the other hand, involves a pair of keys – public and private – that enable secure communication.</p>



<p>These cryptographic methods allow one party to prove to another that they know a value without revealing the value itself. This is crucial for secure user authentication without exposing personal information.</p>



<p>For example, when a user logs in to a service using a DID, cryptographic techniques ensure their identity is verified without revealing their underlying data.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Distributed Ledger Technology (DLT)</strong></h3>



<p>DLT is a system where data is stored across multiple locations, making it decentralized and resistant to tampering. Unlike traditional databases, which are centralized and vulnerable to hacking, DLT spreads data across a network of nodes. So, there is no single point of failure, making it extremely hard to alter records without detection.</p>



<p>This technology helps to maintain secure and transparent records of identity verifications and transactions. For example, in a decentralized identity system, when a user verifies their identity, the transaction is recorded on a distributed ledger. This ensures that the verification is tamper-proof and can be independently audited.</p>



<p>DLT&#8217;s transparency and security features make it ideal for managing identities, ensuring that users&#8217; data remains safe and verifiable without relying on a single, centralized authority.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Decentralized identifiers&nbsp;</strong></h3>



<p>Decentralized identifiers are globally unique identifiers that are a key component of decentralized identity systems. Unlike traditional identifiers like email addresses or usernames, these are created, owned, and controlled by the user. They are linked to verifiable digital credentials, including information like your name, age, or professional qualifications.</p>



<p>One of the more interesting features of DIDs is their interoperability across different networks and platforms, enabled by distributed ledger technology. This means a DID you use on one website can also be recognized and verified on another, eliminating the need to create separate accounts.</p>



<p>For example, you can use it to log into a social media platform and then use the same DID to access your bank account. DIDs&#8217; interoperability ensures a hassle-free and secure experience across various services while keeping you in control of your data.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Verifiable Credentials (VCs)</strong></h3>



<p>Verifiable credentials are vital in enhancing user privacy and control over personal data. A verifiable credential is a digital certificate that proves a claim about an individual, such as their age or educational qualification, without revealing unnecessary personal information.</p>



<p>VCs have three main components: the claim, the proof, and the issuer. The claim is the actual statement about the user, such as “John has a master&#8217;s degree”. The proof is the cryptographic evidence that supports the claim, ensuring its authenticity and integrity. The issuer is the trusted entity that provides the credential, like a university or government.</p>



<p>This technology is great because it <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/02/21/securing-cyber-space-role-of-digital-identity-verification/">allows users to prove their identity</a> or qualifications selectively. For example, when applying for a job, a user can present a VC that verifies their degree without sharing their full academic record. This selective disclosure helps protect privacy while ensuring the necessary information is verified. And because these credentials are digital, they can be easily and securely shared online, making processes faster and more efficient.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>How Gravatar paves the way for decentralized identity in profile management&nbsp;</strong></h2>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="403" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/gravatar-homepage-1-1.png?w=660" alt="Gravatar homepage" class="wp-image-1750" />



<p><a href="https://gravatar.com/">Gravatar</a> is a profile management system that lets users create profiles linked to their email addresses instead of their names. This gives users <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/04/10/personal-branding-tools/">control over their online identities</a>, allowing them to remain anonymous or curate different profiles for various aspects of their lives.</p>



<p>For businesses, integrating Gravatar into their online portals streamlines profile creation by importing profile data directly from Gravatar. The best part? Users remain in full control of their data.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Here&#8217;s how:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong>Centralized profile hub: </strong>A Gravatar profile acts as the central hub for all profiles on Gravatar-enabled sites. When users update their Gravatar profile, the changes automatically reflect across all linked profiles, saving time and ensuring consistency.</li>
</ul>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="373" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/gravatar-profile-example-1.png?w=660" alt="Example of a Gravatar profile" class="wp-image-1751" />



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong>Privacy control: </strong>Users have complete control over their privacy settings and can decide how much data businesses can access. This empowers users to share only what they’re comfortable with.</li>
</ul>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="281" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/gravatar-privacy-settings-1-1.png?w=660" alt="Gravatar privacy settings" class="wp-image-1752" />



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong>Compliance and data security: </strong>By using Gravatar, businesses don’t need to store user data, reducing the burden of data management and compliance with regulations like GDPR. This reduces risk and enhances data security.</li>
</ul>



<p>Imagine a freelancer who uses different profiles for various gigs. With Gravatar, they can manage all these profiles from a single place. Updating their contact information in one spot means it’s updated everywhere, without the need to log into multiple sites or type in the same information over and over again.</p>



<p>Gravatar&#8217;s approach to profile management aligns with the principles of decentralized identity by giving users control and reducing reliance on centralized data storage. It&#8217;s a practical step towards a more secure and user-centric internet.</p>



<p>Curious about how Gravatar can benefit your website? <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/02/27/gravatar-manifesto-one-profile-everywhere/">Check out our manifesto</a> to learn more about integrating Gravatar for decentralized profile management.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Mon, 29 Jul 2024 22:26:04 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:11:"Ronnie Burt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:7;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:73:"Gravatar: 3 Easy Steps to Transform Your WordPress Profile Picture System";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:32:"http://blog.gravatar.com/?p=1910";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:63:"https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/07/19/wordpress-profile-picture/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14059:"<p>We have heard from some of you that you would rather not use Gravatar for your profile pictures in WordPress. Our feelings aren&#8217;t hurt, promise, as we know you have your reasons!&nbsp;</p>



<p>In this guide, we&#8217;ll explore different ways to change the profile picture system in <a href="https://wordpress.org/" rel="nofollow">WordPress</a>, catering to various user preferences and needs. Before moving on to other solutions, we’ll start by showing you how to easily change your profile picture using your Gravatar profile – which as you’ll see, is the simplest method and requires no additional plugins or setup on your WordPress site.</p>



<p>However, if you&#8217;re looking for more customization options or want to give your users the ability to upload their own profile pictures directly on your site, we&#8217;ll also cover alternative solutions.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Before we dive in, it’s important to note that in WordPress, different user roles have different permissions related to their profile pictures (namely, whether they can upload their own or not). Let’s break these down quickly:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Administrators can change their own profile picture, as well as the profile pictures of any other user.</li>



<li>Editors can change their own profile picture.&nbsp;</li>



<li>Authors and Contributors cannot change their profile picture by default. However, this capability can be granted to them by an Administrator using a plugin or custom code.</li>



<li>Subscribers cannot change their own profile picture through the WordPress dashboard. The only way for them to have a profile picture is to use Gravatar.</li>
</ul>



<p>Now that that’s covered, let’s discover the best ways to update profile pictures in WordPress!</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>How to change your WordPress profile picture with Gravatar&nbsp;</strong></h2>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="403" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/gravatar-homepage-2-2.png?w=660" alt="Gravatar homepage" class="wp-image-1923" />



<p><a href="https://support.gravatar.com/basic/what-is-gravatar/">Gravatar</a>, short for &#8220;Globally Recognized Avatar,&#8221; is a service provided by <a href="https://automattic.com/">Automattic</a>, the company behind <a href="http://wordpress.com" rel="nofollow">WordPress.com</a>, <a href="https://woocommerce.com/" rel="nofollow">WooCommerce</a>, <a href="https://jetpack.com/" rel="nofollow">Jetpack</a>, and other leading entities in the WordPress space and beyond. It’s a popular tool and free service for managing avatars across multiple sites, and it’s fully integrated into the platform.&nbsp;</p>



<p>By default, WordPress pulls avatars from Gravatar, so if you have a Gravatar account, your avatar will automatically show up on your <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/05/09/wordpress-profile-page/">WordPress profile</a>.&nbsp;</p>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="291" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/wordpress-default-picture.png?w=660" alt="Profile picture settings in WordPress" class="wp-image-1922" />



<p>If not, you’ll see a generic icon like the Mystery Person, or generated icons like MonsterID, Wavatar, or Identicon, depending on your site’s settings.</p>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="123" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/gravatar-profile-image-options-1.png?w=660" alt="Example of the generic icons " class="wp-image-1921" />



<p>To use Gravatar, you need to make sure the email you use on WordPress matches the one used for Gravatar.&nbsp;</p>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="128" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/confirm-email-for-website.png?w=660" alt="Email section in the WordPress account settings" class="wp-image-1920" />



<p>If you don’t have a Gravatar account, creating one is straightforward. Here’s how to do it:</p>



<ol class="wp-block-list">
<li><a href="https://support.gravatar.com/basic/account-signup/"><strong>Sign up for Gravatar</strong></a><strong>:</strong> Visit Gravatar&#8217;s website and sign up with the email address you use for your WordPress account.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



		
			<div class="jetpack-videopress-player__wrapper"> </div>
			
			
		
		


<ol start="2" class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong>Upload your image: </strong>In the sidebar menu, click on &#8220;Avatars,&#8221; and choose to upload an image from your computer, URL, or select from previously uploaded images.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



		
			<div class="jetpack-videopress-player__wrapper"> </div>
			
			
		
		


<p>Once your Gravatar is set up, it will appear as your profile picture on all WordPress sites supporting it. Remember, changes might take some time to reflect due to caching, so don’t worry if it doesn’t update immediately.&nbsp;</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>How to enable users to change their WordPress profile pictures in the frontend&nbsp;</strong></h2>



<p>Besides your own profile picture, you might also want to change the image for your users, which is what we recommend. Giving users the ability to change their profile pictures directly from the front end can greatly enhance the user experience on your WordPress site. There are several ways to achieve this, so let’s dive in!&nbsp;</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Use a WordPress plugin for custom avatars</strong></h3>



<p>Plugins are a powerful tool for managing custom avatars in WordPress. They offer additional features, ease of use, and seamless integration with other WordPress functionalities. Here’s a look at some of the top plugins you can use to let users change their profile pictures from the frontend.</p>



<h4 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Profile Press</strong></h4>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="332" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/profile-press-download-page.png?w=660" alt="Profile Press download page" class="wp-image-1916" />



<p><a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/wp-user-avatar/" rel="nofollow">Profile Press</a> is a paid membership tool allowing admins to create custom user registration and login forms and a user profile section where registered visitors can change their profile pictures.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Key features:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Customization options for user profiles, registration forms, and more.&nbsp;</li>



<li>Allows users to reset their profile pictures, passwords, and other information.&nbsp;</li>



<li>Allows admins to curate a detailed member directory that is searchable and filterable.&nbsp;</li>
</ul>



<p>This plugin comes with many features, but it can be a bit more complicated for people who just want the option to change profile pictures. It’s also not free: The pricing starts from $129/year for 1 site, and even if you want the lite version, there’s still a 2% Stripe fee.&nbsp;</p>



<h4 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Simple Local Avatars</strong></h4>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="312" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/simple-local-avatars-download-page.png?w=660" alt="Simple Local Avatars download page" class="wp-image-1915" />



<p><a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/simple-local-avatars/" rel="nofollow">Simple Local Avatars</a> enables users to upload avatars directly to their profiles through the WordPress Media Library to manage images, making it an excellent choice for those who prefer keeping everything within their site.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Key Features:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Adds an avatar upload field to user profiles who have permission to do so.&nbsp;</li>



<li>Falls back on Gravatar if no custom picture is chosen.&nbsp;</li>



<li>Stored the pictures in an “Upload” folder where the rest of your media is.&nbsp;</li>
</ul>



<h4 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Avatar Manager&nbsp;</strong></h4>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="386" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/avatar-manager-download-page.png?w=660" alt="Avatar Manager download page" class="wp-image-1914" />



<p><a href="https://wordpress.org/plugins/avatar-manager/" rel="nofollow">Avatar Manager</a> is a great solution for managing avatars. Users can choose between Gravatar, a custom-uploaded image, or a default-generated avatar.</p>



<p>Key Features:</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Supports Gravatar and custom uploads.</li>



<li>Option to fall back on default avatars if needed.</li>



<li>User-friendly profile interface.</li>
</ul>



<p>Avatar Manager is a free user-driven project and one of the most simple solutions if you want to give your users more control over their profile pictures in WordPress. However, it hasn’t been tested with the last three WordPress updates so make sure it’s fully compatible and working before integrating it into your website.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Choosing the right plugin depends on your site’s specific needs and user preferences. Don’t hesitate to try out a few different options to see which one works best for your community. Each plugin offers unique features that can enhance how users interact with their profiles, making your site more engaging and user-friendly.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Explain to users how to change profile pictures via Gravatar&nbsp;</strong></h3>



<p>Changing profile pictures via Gravatar is the easiest method and doesn&#8217;t require installing anything on your WordPress site. However, not every user may be familiar with Gravatar or understand how it connects to their WordPress profile picture.</p>



<p>To help your users navigate this process, consider providing a brief explanation of what Gravatar is and how it works with WordPress. You can include this information in a visible section on your website, such as the <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/05/09/wordpress-profile-page/">user profile page</a>, or the welcome email sent to new users upon registration.</p>



<p>Here&#8217;s an example of what you might say:</p>



<p>&#8220;To change your profile picture on our site, you&#8217;ll need to create a Gravatar account. Gravatar, short for &#8216;Globally Recognized Avatar,&#8217; is a service that allows you to maintain a consistent profile picture across multiple websites, including WordPress sites like ours.</p>



<p>To get started, visit <a href="http://gravatar.com">Gravatar.com</a> and sign up using the same email address associated with your account on our site. Once you&#8217;ve created your account, upload a new profile picture or choose from existing ones. Your chosen image will automatically update on our site and any other WordPress sites where you use the same email address.</p>



<p>Please note that changes might take some time to reflect due to caching. If you have any questions or need assistance, don&#8217;t hesitate to reach out to our support team.&#8221;</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Enhance user profiles with deeper Gravatar integration</strong></h2>



<p>For admins looking to enhance the user experience, WordPress&#8217;s integration with Gravatar offers more than just profile pictures. With <a href="https://docs.gravatar.com/api/rest-api/">Gravatar&#8217;s REST API</a>, you can create detailed user profiles that display additional information alongside avatars. This API allows you to pull in data such as user bios, social media links, and more, providing a richer profile experience.</p>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="411" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/gravatar-profiles-as-a-service-2.png?w=660" alt="Gravatar for developers homepage" class="wp-image-1913" />



<p>Another great feature to consider is <a href="https://support.gravatar.com/profiles/hovercards/">Gravatar Hovercards</a>. These pop-up cards display when someone hovers over a user&#8217;s avatar. Hovercards can show the user&#8217;s bio, social media links, and other Gravatar profile information. This adds an interactive element to your site, giving visitors more context about each user without navigating away from the page.</p>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="344" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/hovercards-example.png?w=660" alt="Example of a Gravatar hovercard" class="wp-image-1912" />



<p>To implement Gravatar Hovercards, just add the following code to your website:</p>



<pre class="wp-block-code"><code><a href="https://www.gravatar.com/js/hovercards/hovercards.min.js">https://www.gravatar.com/js/hovercards/hovercards.min.js</a>
&lt;script&gt;
( function() {
  function init() {
    Gravatar.init();
  }
  if( document.readyState !== 'loading') {
    init();
  } else {
    document.addEventListener( 'DOMContentLoaded', init );
  }
} )();
&lt;/script&gt;</code></pre>



<p>Integrating these features is straightforward and can provide a more personalized and engaging experience for your users.&nbsp;</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Get started today: Implement an effective profile picture system</strong></h2>



<p>Customization is very important for websites that rely on user communication and engagement. The abovementioned plugins can be a great alternative to the default avatar system. However, keeping Gravatar as an option is beneficial because it allows users to transfer their digital identities easily with just an email, avoiding the need to create a new profile for each WordPress site.</p>



<p>Admins can further enhance the user experience by integrating Gravatar more deeply into their site. This can be done by using Gravatar&#8217;s REST API to provide additional profile information and features beyond avatars.</p>



<p>When making a decision, consider your audience and what would serve them best. For an improved and customized user experience, <a href="https://docs.gravatar.com/">check out Gravatar’s REST API integration</a>.&nbsp;</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:47:49 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:11:"Ronnie Burt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:8;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:78:"Gravatar: Encouraging Discussion: Simple Steps to Enable Comments in WordPress";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:32:"http://blog.gravatar.com/?p=1881";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:66:"https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/07/11/enable-comments-in-wordpress/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:20579:"<p>One of the biggest benefits of having a WordPress website is the opportunity to create a loyal community from scratch, particularly by enabling comments on blog posts. When people have the option to interact with your content, they build a deeper connection with you as the author, and they also connect with other like-minded individuals.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Comments are a valuable form of user-generated content that can boost your SEO by keeping your pages fresh and updated. However, managing comments can come with challenges like spam and moderation.</p>



<p>In this article, we&#8217;ll walk you through the steps of enabling and disabling comments, preventing spam, changing user avatars, filtering content, and using tools like <a href="https://gravatar.com/">Gravatar</a> and <a href="https://akismet.com/" rel="nofollow">Akismet</a> to enhance your comment section. By the end, you&#8217;ll have all the knowledge you need to create an engaging community around your WordPress blog.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>How to enable comments in WordPress</strong></h2>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Enable comments on new posts</strong></h3>



<ol class="wp-block-list">
<li>Go to <em>Settings &gt; Discussion</em>.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="501" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/settings-discussion.png?w=660" alt="Navigating to the discussion settings" class="wp-image-1883" />



<ol start="2" class="wp-block-list">
<li>Enable the option for people to comment on new posts.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="156" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/allow-comments-on-new-posts.png?w=660" alt="Default discussion settings for posts" class="wp-image-1885" />



<ol start="3" class="wp-block-list">
<li>Save your changes.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Enable comments on specific posts</strong></h3>



<ol class="wp-block-list">
<li>Navigate to <em>Posts &gt; All Posts</em> or <em>Pages &gt; All Pages</em>, depending on what you want to edit. We’ll go with a post in this example, but the process is the same for pages.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="347" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/posts-all-posts-gravatar.png?w=660" alt="Navigating to the Posts list table" class="wp-image-1886" />



<ol start="2" class="wp-block-list">
<li>Choose the post or page and click <em>Edit</em>.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="347" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/edit-post-gravatar.png?w=660" alt="Editing an individual post" class="wp-image-1887" />



<ol start="3" class="wp-block-list">
<li>Go to the <em>Discussion</em> panel, which is located in the <em>Post</em> tab of the <a href="https://wordpress.org/gutenberg/" rel="nofollow">Gutenberg</a> block editor, and click on <em>Allow comments</em>.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="359" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/allow-comments-individual-post-gravatar.png?w=660" alt="Allowing comments for a specific post" class="wp-image-1888" />



<ol start="4" class="wp-block-list">
<li>Click <em>Update</em> or <em>Publish</em>, and you’re done!</li>
</ol>



<p>Enabling comments for a particular post or a page can be useful in many cases. For example, if you release a new big feature of your product or service, you can create a post announcing it and enable comments to gather feedback, while the comments for the regular updates stay disabled.&nbsp;</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>How to disable comments in WordPress</strong></h2>



<p>While encouraging comment discussions can be great, you also need to make sure that your site has a clean and professional appearance. Sometimes that means disabling comments to prevent spam, inappropriate content, or heated debates on controversial topics. Disabling comments may also be necessary if you have limited moderation resources, want to maintain focus on your content, or have legal concerns. Ultimately, the decision depends on your unique situation and goals for your WordPress site.</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Disabling comments globally</strong></h3>



<p>To disable comments for your entire site, go back to <em>Settings &gt; Discussion </em>and then uncheck the box that says “<em>Allow people to post comments on new articles</em>.”</p>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="157" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/uncheck-allow-comments-global-1.png?w=660" alt="Disabling comments for all future posts" class="wp-image-1889" />



<p>Remember that this setting will only affect future published posts and pages, not the existing content.&nbsp;</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Disabling comments on existing posts and pages</strong></h3>



<p>To do this, you have two options. You can either go back to the individual post settings and uncheck the <em>Allow comments </em>box, or you can do this in bulk for multiple posts.&nbsp;</p>



<p>For the second option, do the following:&nbsp;</p>



<ol class="wp-block-list">
<li>Select all the posts you wish to change the settings for.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="379" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/select-posts-to-edit.png?w=660" alt="Selecting multiple posts for bulk editing" class="wp-image-1890" />



<ol start="2" class="wp-block-list">
<li>Click on the <em>Bulk Actions </em>dropdown menu, select <em>Edit</em>, and then click <em>Apply</em>.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="278" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/bulk-actions-edit.png?w=660" alt="Bulk actions menu in WordPress" class="wp-image-1891" />



<ol start="3" class="wp-block-list">
<li>In the bulk edit window, find the settings for the comments and change them to <em>Do not allow</em>. Save the changes.&nbsp;</li>
</ol>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="276" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/disallow-comments-in-bulk.png?w=660" alt="Disabling comments from the bulk editing window in WordPress" class="wp-image-1892" />



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Moderating comments with default WordPress settings</strong></h2>



<p>Disabling comments for some posts is okay, but we don’t recommend doing that for your entire blog as it puts a big barrier to communication between you and your audience. Instead, you can learn how to moderate comments through different methods.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Let’s see them!&nbsp;</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Accessing comment moderation settings</strong></h3>



<p>From your WordPress dashboard, go to <em>Settings &gt; Discussion</em> and there you will find more settings related to comment moderation.</p>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="247" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/other-comment-settings.png?w=660" alt="Comment settings in WordPress" class="wp-image-1893" />



<p>One of the options, for example, is to make the commenter fill out their name and email, but that isn’t always effective in deterring more dedicated spammers as they will just fill out a fake name and email.&nbsp;</p>



<p>The other option is to limit comments only to registered users, which is great at first glance, but in reality, may discourage new users from engaging with your content. Not everyone wants to register for a site just to post a comment.&nbsp;</p>



<p>The last content moderation feature here is closing comments on posts older than a number provided by you, for example, 14 days. This is also not ideal because it takes time for blog posts to rank, and ideally your content will be discovered by new users long after it’s been published.&nbsp;</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Manual approval of comments</strong></h3>



<p>Further down in the settings, you will find the manual approval functionality.</p>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="103" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/manual-approval-comments.png?w=660" alt="Settings for manually approving WordPress comments" class="wp-image-1894" />



<p>Here, you can choose to be notified for each comment or to only do that for people who comment for the first time. This is a great way to filter out spam and make sure only relevant comments are posted. However, it can be a bit overwhelming when your blog grows, and all of a sudden you have hundreds of comments to approve every day.&nbsp;</p>



<p>If you do have regular readers, their comments will be automatically approved.&nbsp;</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Keyword and phrase moderation</strong></h3>



<p>Further down, you’ll find a box where you can include a list of trigger words that will put comments for moderation.&nbsp;</p>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="282" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/content-moderation-and-links.png?w=660" alt="Content moderation window in WordPress" class="wp-image-1895" />



<p>Common spam keywords include:&nbsp;</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong>CTAs</strong> like “<em>Act now!</em>”, “<em>Apply now!</em>”, “<em>Call now!</em>”, “<em>Don’t hesitate!</em>”, etc.&nbsp;</li>



<li><strong>Almost anything including the word “Free”</strong>, such as <em>“free consultation”</em>, <em>“free offer”</em>, <em>“free trial”</em>, etc.&nbsp;</li>



<li><strong>Anything related to extra income</strong>, such as <em>“additional income”</em>, <em>“be your own boss”</em>, <em>“grow your business”</em>,<em> “double your”</em>, <em>“earn $”</em>, <em>“earn extra cash”</em>, <em>“earn from home”</em>, <em>“expect to earn”</em>, and many more.&nbsp;</li>
</ul>



<p>In the field above this box, you can also limit the number of links allowed in the comment, as one of the more common forms of spam includes links that prompt people to sign up for something.&nbsp;</p>



<p>There is also the option to directly delete comments with certain content, and it’s called “<em>Disallowed Comment Keys.</em>”</p>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="223" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/disallowed-comment-keys.png?w=660" alt="Disallowed Comment Keys box in WordPress" class="wp-image-1896" />



<p>This setting allows you to include special keywords and phrases that signal spam and uncensored comments. If any of these words appear in the content, whether it’s the actual comment or the user name, email, IP address, and URL, then the comment will be automatically put in the <em>Trash</em>.&nbsp;</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Email notifications</strong></h3>



<p>All of these triggers will appear as notifications but you can also enable emails so that you can keep a close look at your blog at any time.&nbsp;</p>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="151" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/email-notifications.png?w=660" alt="Email notification settings for comments" class="wp-image-1897" />



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Regular review and maintenance</strong></h3>



<p>Once you have all the settings you want, you also need to regularly check your spam folders for potential legitimate comments. Just because a comment was flagged as spam does not always mean it is genuinely spam.&nbsp;</p>



<p>It’s also recommended that you update your trigger words to include specific instances from your comment section, as well as email addresses, which are confirmed spammers.&nbsp;</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Deep dive into avatar settings in WordPress</strong></h2>



<p>The avatar settings in WordPress allow you to customize how users appear on your website. You can go there by navigating to <em>Settings &gt; Discussion</em>.&nbsp;</p>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="338" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/avatar-settings.png?w=660" alt="Avatar settings in WordPress" class="wp-image-1898" />



<p>WordPress is connected to <a href="https://gravatar.com/">Gravatar</a>, a digital identity platform by Automattic, that allows users to create a unique profile connected to their email address. By default, WordPress pulls in user avatars from Gravatar, using the profile connected with the same email address. If they don’t have a Gravatar profile, a default picture will appear, which you can change from the same settings.&nbsp;</p>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="355" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/default-avatar-settings.png?w=660" alt="Default avatar options" class="wp-image-1899" />



<p>Generally, it’s recommended that you encourage users to create and customize their Gravatar profiles instead of staying anonymous. This will help with consistency on your website but also many other aspects:&nbsp;</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong>Personalization: </strong>Custom avatars allow users to express their identity and make discussions more engaging.</li>



<li><strong>Recognition: </strong>Unique avatars help users recognize each other, fostering a sense of community.</li>



<li><strong>Professionalism: </strong>For businesses, consistent branding with a logo avatar builds credibility.</li>



<li><strong>Visual appeal: </strong>Avatars make comment sections more visually appealing and inviting for interaction.</li>
</ul>



<p>By encouraging users to create Gravatar profiles, you can drastically reduce the amount of spam you receive as Gravatar users are always connected with legitimate email addresses. Besides that, they are often linked with their social media accounts, which are automatically verified by the platform.&nbsp;</p>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="373" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/gravatar-profile-example-1-1.png?w=660" alt="Example of a Gravatar profile" class="wp-image-1901" />



<p></p>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="383" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/verified-accounts-gravatar.png?w=660" alt="Linking verified social media accounts to a Gravatar profile" class="wp-image-1903" />



<p>If you want to learn more about how Gravatar profiles work, <a href="https://gravatar.com">check out our documentation</a>!&nbsp;</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Tool to elevate comments sections on WordPress</strong></h2>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Prevent spam with Akismet Anti-Spam</strong></h3>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="351" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/jetpack-akismet.png?w=660" alt="Akismet Anti-Spam homepage" class="wp-image-1904" />



<p><a href="https://akismet.com/" rel="nofollow">Akismet</a> is a tool by Jetpack created specifically to battle spam on WordPress sites. It comes packed with features that allow you to automate verification processes and create a distraction-free environment for your genuine users to engage and comment on posts and pages.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Its main features include:&nbsp;</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><strong>Automatic spam detection: </strong>The plugin automatically detects and filters out spam comments, trackbacks, forum posts, WooCommerce product reviews, and contact form submissions. Everything is sent to the <em>Spam</em> folder.&nbsp;</li>



<li><strong>Real-time monitoring:</strong> This feature captures spam right as it happens. Unwanted comments and submissions are automatically removed so that your site doesn’t include this type of content even for a second.&nbsp;</li>



<li><strong>Spam reporting:</strong> Users can teach Akismet by reporting spam directly from the WordPress dashboard, improving its accuracy and helping it learn your specific triggers. This way, no legitimate traffic is flagged as spam.&nbsp;</li>



<li><strong>Full integration: </strong>The plugin easily integrates with popular contact form plugins like <a href="https://wpforms.com/" rel="nofollow">WP Forms</a>, <a href="https://www.gravityforms.com/" rel="nofollow">Gravity Forms</a>, and more, and it also has a reliable spam protection network.</li>



<li><strong>Compliance with regulations: </strong>With Akismet, you can choose to display a privacy notice so that people are aware of their comments being scanned by a tool. This helps you become fully compliant with regulations like the <a href="https://gdpr-info.eu/" rel="nofollow">General Data Protection Regulation</a> in the European Union.&nbsp;</li>
</ul>



<p>Its spam-protection capabilities work both on comments and form submissions so you can receive only relevant and real user interactions.&nbsp;</p>



<h3 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Leverage Gravatar profile integration for a better community</strong></h3>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="411" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/gravatar-profiles-as-a-service-1-2.png?w=660" alt="Gravatar – Profiles-as-a-service" class="wp-image-1906" />



<p>Beyond WordPress’s default integration with Gravatar for pulling in user avatars, Gravatar’s REST API allows website owners and developers to <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/06/03/profiles-as-a-service/">import user profile data</a> and build customized profile pages for their WordPress users. This powerful integration enhances the overall experience on comment threads by enabling users to visit commenter profiles and learn more about them.&nbsp;</p>



<p>When integrated, the REST API gives you access to important user information such as:&nbsp;</p>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li>Their profile bio</li>



<li>Location&nbsp;</li>



<li>Website URLs</li>



<li>Payment links</li>



<li>Verified social media profiles</li>



<li>Additional images</li>



<li>And much more!</li>
</ul>



<p>With this data, however, WordPress site owners can create dynamic and informative <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/06/05/user-profile-page-examples/">user profiles</a>, which can significantly improve the sense of community and encourage more meaningful interactions within comment sections.&nbsp;</p>



<p>It’s also great for the overall user experience because it gives your visitors a special place on your site without having to register and fill in the same information from scratch.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Another great feature of Gravatar is the <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2023/10/02/new-gravatar-hovercards-faster-open-source-and-everywhere/">Hovercard</a> – a dynamic mini-version of a user’s Gravatar profile that shows up when you hover your mouse over their <a href="https://blog.gravatar.com/2024/07/19/wordpress-profile-picture/">profile picture</a>. </p>



<img tabindex="0" width="660" height="360" src="https://blog.gravatar.com/wp-content/uploads/2024/07/gravatar-comment-section.png?w=660" alt="Example of a Gravatar hovercard in a comment section of a blog post" class="wp-image-1907" />



<p>This allows other site visitors to quickly access information about another user without leaving the page, giving them valuable context in the specific situation.&nbsp;</p>



<p>Actively using and encouraging users to take advantage of Gravatar has the power to create strong communities that actively engage with each other. It also incentivizes them to create and maintain their digital identities with the platform.&nbsp;</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading"><strong>Ready to build an engaging platform? Activate comments in WordPress now&nbsp;</strong></h2>



<p>With the right tools and techniques, WordPress comment sections can become a hub for engaged communities and a place to foster loyal relationships with users and other visitors. And if you’re apprehensive because of potential spam, remember that the payoff from having a community is definitely worth it.&nbsp;</p>



<p>It improves your reputation and takes your website to a whole different level – from a passive content platform to a place where people can communicate with like-minded individuals, share ideas, and learn new things.&nbsp;</p>



<p>With Gravatar profiles and the REST API, this communication hub can become even more engaging, so don’t wait! <a href="https://docs.gravatar.com/">Integrate your website with Gravatar today</a> and make your comment sections come alive!&nbsp;</p>



<p></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Mon, 29 Jul 2024 21:41:58 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:11:"Ronnie Burt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:9;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:79:"Do The Woo Community: A Journey to WordPress and Contributing with Birgit Olzem";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"https://dothewoo.io/?p=84922";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:78:"https://dothewoo.io/a-journey-to-wordpress-and-contributing-with-birgit-olzem/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:33431:"Episode Transcript
<div class="wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained">
<p>BobWP:<br />Hey, BobWP, yes, it&#8217;s me. You&#8217;re probably wondering what I&#8217;m doing here on The WordPress Way, DEIB. We decided to do something a little bit different this month. That doesn&#8217;t mean that you are going to be missing our wonderful host that is usually here, Birgit, but we thought this time let&#8217;s learn about Birgit. I mean, I&#8217;ve had a few hosts on different shows, and we&#8217;ve learned more about their journey, and it&#8217;s always fun, and I&#8217;ll probably even learn things I don&#8217;t know. So I am looking forward to it. So yeah, Birgit is here. Hello, Birgit, how you doing?</p>



<p>Birgit:<br />Hello, Bob. I&#8217;m doing fine, thanks, and thanks for sharing the idea or turning tables. It&#8217;s interesting.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />It&#8217;s fun. It&#8217;s always fun. I did that in the very early years when we had three co-hosts. I did a kind of highlight. I called it Unplugged. Each one of them unplugged, and we just went through their own story and learned a little bit more about them. So I&#8217;m excited for it. And I think the best way to start is everybody&#8217;s always curious, especially some people because you&#8217;ve heard it so many times, but I don&#8217;t even know if I have heard how you got into WordPress or what drove you to WordPress. So why don&#8217;t you tell us a little bit about that?</p>



<p>Birgit:<br />Well, that is kind of funny, but also interesting for those who don&#8217;t know me yet, especially or didn&#8217;t see, I am a white woman almost 50 years now, and I&#8217;m a mom of five almost grown-up children, and I also have already two grandchildren. My ex-husband back in the day was a truck driver, so I was over the weekdays alone with all our children. And when my children went to bed, I had a lot of time to spend, and I was always a curious person. I learned about computers back in school, and I went to a business school and learned about Word, Excel, bookkeeping, all the stuff. And when we got our first personal computer, I was always in. And then when we got the internet, I was sucked in. I opened a new reel to my perception. So I need to preface this a little bit because it&#8217;s kind of funny.</p>



<p>Imagine a woman breastfeeding one of the children, sitting next to a computer in a chat room, and talking about stuff, and someone shared a link to a personal website. I was so stoked about that. I was so curious. Oh, I want to build websites myself. How does it function? I&#8217;m always a person who wants to look behind the curtains and how things work. And then I went down this rabbit hole, learning about HTML, how to build websites with iframes and tables. So crazy. And no, none of those websites are live anymore, so I can&#8217;t share them with the world today. But yeah, pivoting from HTML, and then you have to change everything. When you want to change, you have to change the navigation on every page when you build it in classic HTML and so on. And I was tired of that. So how can I get dynamic data too? So I learned about PHP and some frameworks and how to do that, and somehow I stumbled upon Typeform and B2/cafelog back in the day, and I was like, interesting. You can publish something and put it in the world without worrying about changing any hardcoded links to something. So I played with that, and then I learned that B2/cafelog would be discontinued, and it was forked by someone and called it WordPress. And I was one of the persons who installed WordPress on their web servers from this first release. I played around, but I wasn&#8217;t really serious about it yet back in the day. But in 2005, I was asked to build a website for someone. I didn&#8217;t use WordPress for building websites, just playing and fiddling around with my personal projects.</p>



<p>But it meant I started to get self-employed as a side hustle to be more legal and serious about it. And since then, oh wow, always as a side hustle, I learned more about website building, and I didn&#8217;t have the chance to go to some form of professional training. Everything I know today I taught myself scrolling through the internet. Selfhtml.de was one of my plates. I learned a lot about just asking questions and checking other blog posts. And then when YouTube started to be a thing, I learned about that. I also experimented with Joomla, Drupal, Typo3, which is more popular in Germany, and so on. I also managed one time I was working with a primary direct marketing with call center and address data management and so on. I went to my boss one day and told him, our website sucks, it doesn&#8217;t look very good. And he told me, okay, come up with a new concept. I did it in one week, and then I founded the web design department in that company. Wow. I pivoted from a mom with five children learning HTML and designing websites in the afternoon and when the kids are asleep or something to running a web design department in a small business company, we had around 150 employees back in the day. So building websites and also later building apps and using WordPress as a data management backend. When REST API became a thing, I&#8217;m more of a generalist because I have multiple interests. Maybe my divergent traits come into play on that. But on the other hand, it&#8217;s ongoing consistency in my life building websites and fiddling around with new stuff and maybe sometimes running after the new shiny objects. So I&#8217;m kind of weak for these shiny objects, but on the other hand, it&#8217;s always sparking new ideas and so on.</p>



<p>And that is how I came to WordPress. And then I was building websites. And then I found a theme framework called the Extreme theme, which was utilizing back in the day the YAML CSS framework. It&#8217;s like today, the Bootstrap or Tailwind CSS framework. But YAML was the other part, and it&#8217;s kind of a page builder theme back in the day. I was really interested and founded by a German workforce engineer. He unfortunately passed away too early back in the years, but I was part of the forum members. We grew friendship over that. And someday he talked about, oh, I&#8217;m going to a WordCamp in Berlin, and you need to come. And I was, Ooh, I am a girl in a rural area in western Germany, and I have five children. I don&#8217;t go to a big city like Berlin. But somehow I managed to go to the WordCamp.</p>



<p>I met with the people I adored back in the day, people who ran blogs like Frank Bültge, co-founder of Inpsyde. I learned that those people are normal people like you and me. But somehow back in the day, I put people on a pedestal because I looked up to them. But on the other hand, it was really good. This stoked me with the WordPress community. It was my first encounter, and this was 2010, and I was infected by the WordPress event virus. I needed to go to WordCamp. Then I learned about, oh, you can contribute to WordPress, to the project, and you can help with that. And so we grew, and then 2011 was my next WordCamp in Cologne, which is more nearby in my hometown. But also 2011, a big pivot year in my personal life because I finally separated from my then-husband living in a toxic marriage.</p>



<p>I lost a good friend of mine to cancer in the same year. Two years earlier, my mom died. So there was so much going on in my life, but WordPress and building websites were always a consistent pillar in my life. Then I met Robert Windisch, you know him, the man with the hat, the other hat. Robert was also one of the founding partners of a site back in the day called Inpsyde. In 2009, I specialized in training WordPress instead of just building websites, and I ran individual training for small business owners and small companies and so on. I joined forces with them in 2012, first as a self-employed contract trainer, and later they took the leap and employed me on a part-time job. One of the first tasks when I&#8217;m not training, I should have maintained the translations for WordPress in German.</p>



<p>For those who don&#8217;t know how that works, I need to go into that because it&#8217;s really important. The agency site was founded because of some people who joined forces and translating WordPress back in the day was translating in the code. Can you imagine translating and changing the original code? It&#8217;s a no-go today. So for everyone who doesn&#8217;t know, don&#8217;t work and edit core software. They started a community forum, and over that, they grew and got asked for contracts and so on. They built a company. That is a long time ago, but over the years, they always maintained the German translation for WordPress in two variants. One is the informal, it&#8217;s the default version, but also the formal translation for formal speech. In Germany, we have two different forms of that. So it means you need to maintain two language sets.</p>



<p>Back in the day, we also needed to alter some files of the core software before we could release a German language pack and the German compiled version. When I started translating WordPress as an employee of Inpsyde or outside, I learned how to compile WordPress. Imagine, a tired Birgit. The kids are asleep, and I&#8217;m sitting there waiting in the IRC chat room for the WordPress core to get the announcement that a new version was released because then I needed to go to compile the translation files. I prepared and tested beforehand with the original file, and then go to the backend of WordPress.org and compile a package and then push the button for release. So imagine this kind</p>



<p>of sweating, dripping experience in the middle of the night because the majority of the developers were sitting in the US, based more in San Francisco.</p>



<p>So the time zone shift to Germany was something. So it&#8217;s gotten easier over the years, but this experience and my natural curiosity, which comes with my larger divergent trait, was always leading the path where I am currently now. So contributing to WordPress and building communities, fostering relationships. So in 2013, when Remkus de Vries and Zé Fontainhas founded the WordCamp Europe, this was my first international WordCamp. So in 2013, 11 years ago, that opened another gate. In 2013, I was privileged with the travel assistance program, or I learned about the travel assistance program for the community summit, and I traveled to WordCamp San Francisco and Community Summit in 2014. This was my first touchdown on US soil. That&#8217;s crazy. It&#8217;s so crazy. Given the fact that I, as a mom of five children, divorced back in 2014, I was just joining a new partnership after three years of being a single parent and leaving my children.</p>



<p>The majority were already older now, but my youngest was eight and a half years old, my youngest, back in 2014. Also, being a person with mobility issues, it is kind of challenging to travel internationally. But this is a backstory of how I got involved with WordPress and how I started contributing to WordPress and fell in love with the community. I really fell because I care a lot about the people. And that brings me to today, why I am so advocating for diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging. Because I come from a position where I had to think about how I can feed my children the next day. So low income because of different circumstances, having a part-time job over all the years, not filling the fridge and dealing with a toxic marriage and so on, getting no child support and all the stuff. I know how it feels to be not that privileged.</p>



<p>Even if I&#8217;m living in a privileged country, I live in Germany, I&#8217;m in a pretty safe space. We have a decent healthcare system. But still, given all that, I see a lot of injustice, and where I see injustice, I am going to fight for that. I try to be the voice for those who can&#8217;t raise their voices, even if it&#8217;s someone who&#8217;s introverted or doesn&#8217;t know where to speak or who to speak with to change things. A good friend of mine phrased it. I&#8217;m some kind of an overarching glue to all within the community because as someone who&#8217;s a generalist and not a specialist in a certain area, I know a lot, but on the surface, only in certain areas, I&#8217;m more likely to dive deep. But yeah, so that is helping to connect. I&#8217;m more the person who connects others, and that is why I&#8217;m advocating so much.</p>



<p>And I&#8217;m also not shy to speak out when I see there&#8217;s injustice. But I also try to consider and not to dive into some kind of drama. Even if I see drama unfold on social media like Twitter or X now or whatever it&#8217;s called today, I try to find all voices within this drama and see, okay, what is this side? What is this side? Where do we have some kind of overlap? And then I try to be constructive with my feedback. So I don&#8217;t want to fuel the fire, but not shutting down the fire but giving it direction in a productive way. And that is why I&#8217;m always asking to have some kind of an overview above the organization of the WordPress open source ecosystem, how we can make sure that everyone is treated equally, that everyone gets the same chance even if they don&#8217;t have the same starting point.</p>



<p>So especially WordPress as an open-source system. And when you see I am with WordPress since its first release, I saw a lot of progress, but still, we have so many areas where you don&#8217;t have to know how to code and that is not that obvious. But on the other hand, it&#8217;s also not so attractive for some companies to put money on those areas of the WordPress ecosystem where there&#8217;s also a lot of work to do. And since I&#8217;m thinking about this accessibility team, which makes sure that the software project and everything issues like needing to raise assistive technology, but also for someone with neurodivergence is the UX and so on. The next part is documentation. How many contributors do we have which are sponsored to document our fast-pacing software development, but also community and making sure that areas like the DEIB within WordPress so that the DEIB principles can be applied in the daily work of the majority of people who are volunteers so they don&#8217;t get some formal training on how to behave, even if it might be common sense in certain areas of the world to treat people nicely and kindly.</p>



<p>We have a worldwide project which also has a lot of different cultures and histories and sees the diversity not only in the color of the skin, diversity also the diverse range of age, the diverse range of knowledge where people are coming from. So when I compare myself with a core developer who got some formal training at MIT, for instance, so I can&#8217;t compare myself, it&#8217;s because I&#8217;m self-educated, but on the other hand, I have traits and knowledge in other areas where we can combine those and create a better experience for everyone. So yeah, it&#8217;s a long story to share.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />A lot to unpack there. Yeah, and one of the interesting things, you went through a lot of different phases, you touched on a lot of different things there. No wonder we connected so well. You and I have so many similarities, just not in the timeline, but in attitude and how we feel about things. I think you started with the first release, and I started like you, just dabbling in 2006. The interesting thing with me was I&#8217;d already been doing marketing, running a marketing company for 17 years prior to WordPress. In the, I believe it was, I don&#8217;t know if it was the mid or late eighties, I took a year of computer programming. I thought I needed to learn this. So I spent a year learning Cobol, Assembly Language, FORTRAN, and Basic, and it was absolutely a nightmare to me. I mean, I was fascinated by computers.</p>



<p>I loved doing what I could do, but getting inside of them, opposite of you, was fearful. It was like, whoa. But having done that got me very comfortable with computers too, which I don&#8217;t regret spending that year because it just felt like I got it more than some people. And unlike you, I went in kicking and screaming into any kind of building sites, doing HTML, just horrible flash sites for a couple of clients. I knew I had to get into it owning a marketing and design business. I&#8217;d been doing print design for so many years, but when I found WordPress in 2006 and started playing with it, it was mostly around the blogging part that fascinated me. I was already into content. My wife was already doing stuff on Typepad, and she had an award-winning blog way back in the days. I discovered WordPress as a rescue for me.</p>



<p>It was like, wow, I can build a site using one of these themes. I got a theme from iThemes, one of their early themes, shortly after they started, and I built our own little brochure site. I thought, wow, this thing actually looks professional now and I can make changes. So I was forced into it, not so much ever really wanting to dive in. I was curious about the code, but not so curious as wanting to do it yet. I&#8217;ll leave that to the other people that want to do that and are good at it. But just all the things. My first WordCamp was in 2010, San Francisco. A lot of similarities. It&#8217;s amazing. Just how you got into contributing. I did kind of the different side of things. It wasn&#8217;t like official contributions, but it was educating, consulting, writing, being more of a teacher and trainer in WordPress all those years. So we both went on similar paths. We&#8217;ve been privileged, but in the sense that we went through some very rough times in our business and stuff, and some really tense times, and you have more empathy. I feel like I have it because I am always thinking of the other person and how they feel versus just what I&#8217;m thinking.</p>



<p>Birgit:<br />Yeah, it&#8217;s really interesting and you mentioned something about this empathy part, but also caring a lot about other people. And when I had some rough times, I mentioned I went from a toxic marriage to being a single parent and fighting for the rights of my children, et cetera. I&#8217;m very vocal about my history and sometimes I was so hard struggling with my mental health and also all the stuff going on in my life. But as I mentioned, WordPress and the community are always some of the stable pillars in my life, and I&#8217;ve spoken about that already. I shared it in some talks at a WordCamp. WordPress literally saved my life at some point in my life where maybe I said a trigger warning. I had moments in my life where I was questioning if it&#8217;s worthwhile to stay alive and then I just vented it out and spoke to someone and I reached out to someone and they immediately jumped in and supported me.</p>



<p>That is a moment in my life where I always tear up when I&#8217;m sharing that, even in the darkest moments, when you have the courage to reach out to someone, even if it&#8217;s a stranger on the internet, you may have built a relationship over the internet. But so many people in this community jumped in supporting me. The recent example was collecting funds so that I could afford to travel to WordCamp Europe and to Sweden this year. The WordPress community has my back all the time when I reach out and am vocal about and share my vulnerability. So to be vulnerable is not a bad thing. As long as we turn our</p>



<p>vulnerability into something we can grow and build upon, and create more empathy for someone else who may have a similar struggle. I learned about that my crowdfunding campaign this year to go to WordCamp Europe inspired someone to take action in another similar direction and also see their initiatives like the WP Community Collective.</p>



<p>They got inspired by the crowdfunding campaign to fund contributors to travel to WordCamps. We have great initiatives that support speakers to travel to WordCamps, but someone who is contributing to WordPress and doesn&#8217;t have, maybe due to several facts, the ability to afford to travel, but to be accepted as the speaker at a WordCamp. That is something I learned about, even if I shared my vulnerability, not to earn empathy, but just to share, Hey, I feel this way now. So if someone has something to spare, I&#8217;m really appreciative of this. But thinking about looking back on that, how much this might have positively affected someone else. So in retrospect, everything I touched in my life had somehow affected someone else&#8217;s life. That is how I always also try to be alert to everything I do, how someone else&#8217;s life may be influenced by that. I&#8217;m not forcing that, but I try to consider every decision I make, does this affect someone else negatively? That is what you say about empathy.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah, exactly. Let&#8217;s step back and put ourselves in this person&#8217;s shoe or from this person&#8217;s view or whatever, because a lot of times what&#8217;s being said or what&#8217;s being told, we&#8217;ve all been there. And that&#8217;s the thing a lot of people lose is the ability to go back and say, oh, I remember when I was in that spot. Like you said, traveling between costs of just traveling, especially if you&#8217;re traveling internationally, you&#8217;re taking a day or two on each end just to get there. And then you&#8217;ve got the actual event and you&#8217;re away for a week. So not only are you spending money for a lot of these people, they&#8217;re not making money during that time. They don&#8217;t have the luxury of being given the time off for something. They have to close down shop and do that thing, even though that may be productive and helpful to their business.</p>



<p>Birgit:<br />Exactly. And thinking of traveling, especially for someone with mobility issues, I need to plan ahead every move because walking distances is still kind of challenging. Even if I now have two hip replacements,<br />Mechanically, I can walk, but my body isn&#8217;t used yet to this kind of movement. So it takes a while to get on board. Again, as someone with neurodivergent traits, I like to know where I&#8217;m going and what kind of obstacles I may face and how to get from A to B in the most effective way so it doesn&#8217;t drain my energy too much so I can be alert when I&#8217;m there. But it&#8217;s still also overwhelming meeting new people and a lot of people at events like WordCamp Europe, WordCamp US, or WordCamp Asia. These are the flagship events with 2,000 or 3,000 attendees. And also traveling abroad internationally, it&#8217;s always challenging to the body, even if someone is healthy and fit.<br />It&#8217;s draining.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah, it&#8217;s brutal, is what it is. Yeah.</p>



<p>Birgit:<br />So thinking of someone who has more mobility issues or someone who has more weight on their bones than someone else, finding a good safe spot to sit. I experienced entering some chairs with very unfortunate positions of armrests and so on, which my butt didn&#8217;t fit in really well.</p>



<p>It&#8217;s kind of difficult to sit down, but on the other hand, I can&#8217;t assume that everyone can acknowledge that beforehand, but I can share my experience. For instance, I tend to speak to WordCamp organizers, especially WordCamp Europe and WordCamp US, to make sure that there are enough seating positions also in the hallways so that people who might need to take a rest, especially for someone we are barely out of the pandemic, and the pandemic showed up that someone who was infected with this viral infection can suffer from syndromes like chronic fatigue. You don&#8217;t see that when someone is challenged with chronic fatigue syndrome. So you have to take a rest because you are going out of breath when you are walking 20 meters or 30 meters, so you may need to take a rest. So to make sure that the WordCamp event or the WordPress event venue accommodates the situation, not only do we need accessible restrooms, and hopefully the cleaning staff doesn&#8217;t put any cleaning supplies within the accessible restrooms so that someone with a wheelchair can&#8217;t navigate.</p>



<p>That is also an example when you see something where you see, okay, this might affect someone else. Going back to the empathy part, if you see something, maybe the instance I experienced at WordCamp Europe on the first conference day and I went to the restroom as someone with mobility issues, I prefer accessible restrooms because they&#8217;re more convenient to use, even if I don&#8217;t have a wheelchair. But not having a wheelchair is not an excuse not to use accessible restrooms for everyone who wants to judge why someone is using an accessible restroom. Even if they can walk, there may have other reasons to use an accessible restroom, just to note. But I imagine I witnessed that the cleaning staff had their cart with all the cleaning supplies and if someone with a wheelchair would have accessed the room, they wouldn&#8217;t have had any chance to navigate through that because the washing thing was blocked. I reported that immediately to the organizing team, and they went to the venue facility manager and it was solved the next day because it was the end of the event. But yeah.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah, I was just thinking those wet floor signs that they put out too could be a real issue because they have to try to put it somewhere where you can see it, but that could be right in the way too.</p>



<p>Birgit:<br />Yeah, exactly. And that is something when you see, and that is why I urge everyone to first use common sense, then ask yourself, does this affect someone else negatively? I can&#8217;t expect that everyone knows everything, but if you have someone in your family or friend surroundings who may have faced some issues, try to be advocating for their convenience if possible. We can&#8217;t please everyone to be fair, so we can do as much as possible even if we can&#8217;t accommodate everything and include everyone and everything. But to be in a balance and make it, because there&#8217;s a saying, talking about also WordPress websites, having accessible WordPress websites, it&#8217;s not only benefiting those who need it but benefits everyone. Accessibility benefits everyone. And that is also true for venue traveling, et cetera.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah. Yeah. Well, this has been great because this has not only been learning about everything you do or have done and then how you got into your passion around what you&#8217;re doing on this show but also a conversation about it. So it was just a very nice rounded chat we had. And we can see why you do this once a month on here at Do the Woo. So this is very cool and I appreciate being able to turn the table and I think everybody likes to learn a little bit more about our hosts. And I&#8217;m just going to throw this out. It&#8217;s a little bit of an opportunity. I haven&#8217;t had a chance to talk about it regarding our news site. So for those of you that listen to various shows, we do have a way now we have our sponsors, which I adore, and they make this whole thing possible.</p>



<p>But there is another way of giving back to this show and that is supporting each specific show. And what that means is you can go in and you can give a one-time gift or you can subscribe for a couple of different amounts, but that money actually will go to the host of the show. It doesn&#8217;t go into running the show or anything. And as Birgit mentioned, she&#8217;s been lucky to have the support of the community. And that&#8217;s what this is going to be. It will either help the hosts themselves with their contributions, the time they spend on that, their travel. And for some of our hosts, maybe they don&#8217;t feel they need that because of their position and where they are at this time in their life. And they&#8217;ll say, Hey, let&#8217;s give it to one of these related WordPress organizations that do help speakers and contributor travel.</p>



<p>So if you&#8217;ve been listening to a show and you&#8217;re really getting into it and you want to give something back to that show&#8217;s host, we&#8217;ll pull that together, figure out what to do with it, and you&#8217;re actually supporting them because they&#8217;re driving all the shows and they&#8217;re doing all the front face work and stuff. I&#8217;m just running behind the scenes doing all the other stuff, except occasionally I come in and have the opportunity to do great interviews and chats with my friends like this. So I appreciate it. And yeah, this has been absolutely wonderful. Anything you want to say before we sign off?</p>



<p>Birgit:<br />Yeah, on the first end, I really want to thank you again, Bob first for creating this kind of great show and place to learn, but also offering the spot for people like me to talk about topics we care about a lot, but also giving someone else a voice where they can share also their story and learnings so that everyone can benefit from that. I am also very appreciative of all the work you are doing in the backend, which is not seen by everyone. So a special shout out again to you, but for the listeners, I want to say if you want to go and make a difference, there are several ways you can join the WordPress community and you don&#8217;t need to know how to code. There are certain areas where you can contribute your time and knowledge. And if you have any questions, please reach out to me. I&#8217;m Coach Birgit on all the socials on the Make WordPress Slack. Also, you can reach out to Bob if you have any questions. We are really happy to guide you in the right direction where you can contribute your passion to the project.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Well, thank you and thank everyone for listening. If you&#8217;re not subscribed, you can subscribe to the</p>



<p>old channel, or you can just subscribe to your favorite show. And we are trying to push more people back to commenting. This is my own little mission. I would love for you to come in on the post and comment and share your thoughts on anything we talked about. Of course, Birgit is always looking for wonderful guests that want to come in and talk around the issue of DEIB. So please consider that as well. And my final thank you to Birgit for being a wonderful guest.</p>



<p>Birgit:<br />Thank you for being a wonderful host.</p>
</div>




<p>In this special episode of <strong><em>The WordPress Way, DEIB</em></strong>, <strong>BobWP</strong> turns the tables and has a chat with our regular host, <strong><a href="https://dothewoo.io/host/birgit-olzem/">Birgit Olzem</a></strong>. You will learn about Birgit&#8217;s fascinating journey with WordPress, from her early days of learning HTML while caring for her children to becoming a pivotal contributor and advocate for diversity, equity, inclusion, and belonging within the WordPress community. </p>



<p>Birgit shares her personal story of overcoming challenges, building a career in web design, and finding strength and support in the WordPress community. This episode is a heartfelt exploration of her passion, resilience, and dedication to fostering a more inclusive and empathetic tech space. </p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Takeaways</h2>



<p><strong>Birgit&#8217;s Journey to WordPress:</strong> Birgit&#8217;s journey began with her curiosity about computers and web design, leading her to discover WordPress and become an early adopter.</p>



<p><strong>Community Support:</strong> The WordPress community has been a consistent pillar of support for Birgit, providing assistance during her challenging times and helping her attend events through crowdfunding.</p>



<p><strong>Diversity, Equity, Inclusion, and Belonging (DEIB):</strong> Birgit is a strong advocate for DEIB within the WordPress community, driven by her own experiences of overcoming adversity and recognizing the importance of equitable opportunities for all.</p>



<p><strong>Contributing to WordPress:</strong> Birgit&#8217;s contributions to WordPress include translating the software into German, founding a web design department, and providing training to small business owners. She emphasizes that contributing doesn&#8217;t always require coding skills.</p>



<p><strong>Empathy and Advocacy:</strong> Birgit&#8217;s personal struggles have instilled a deep sense of empathy, driving her to fight against injustice and advocate for those who may not have a voice.</p>



<p><strong>Challenges of Traveling with Mobility Issues:</strong> Birgit highlights the difficulties faced by individuals with mobility issues when traveling to events and emphasizes the need for accessible accommodations.</p>



<p><strong>Impact of Vulnerability:</strong> Sharing her vulnerabilities has not only brought Birgit personal support but also inspired others in the community to take action and support each other.</p>



<p><strong>Role of the WordPress Community:</strong> The WordPress community is depicted as a supportive and inclusive space where individuals can find help, build relationships, and contribute to a larger mission.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Mon, 29 Jul 2024 08:09:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:10;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:30:"Matt: Happy Birthday, Charleen";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:23:"https://ma.tt/?p=117889";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:46:"https://ma.tt/2024/07/happy-birthday-charleen/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4859:"<p>I&#8217;ve had many blessings in my life, but the very first was the family I was born into. Today, I&#8217;d like to tell you about my only sibling, favorite sister, and best beloved, <a href="https://charleen.mullenweg.com/">Charleen Mullenweg</a>.</p>



<p>With a gap of nine and a half years between us, we could have easily been distant from each other, but it was almost like I had a third parent, one who was just the coolest person I could imagine in the universe. My sister paved the way for me, giving my parents lots of experience and training, so they were pretty chill by the time I came along. As a very young kid, I didn&#8217;t always understand what was going on. For example, one time, I remember getting jealous of all the gifts she was getting&#8230; gifts given after a really intense surgery for severe scoliosis (twisted spine) that required her to wear a brace for many years. She was always gracious and understanding towards the little kid following her around everywhere and trying to be like her.</p>



<p>However, Charleen never wavered in being my biggest supporter, despite how annoying I must have been as an eager kid a decade her junior. All of my early aesthetic and musical tastes were derivative of her early discovery of cool bands like The Police, U2, Counting Crows, and Concrete Blonde. Despite being labeled with her initials, I&#8217;d &#8220;borrow&#8221; all her CDs and tapes. We&#8217;d make each other mixes and share books.</p>



<p>I&#8217;ve never doubted that no matter what I did, Charleen would always back me up, as she said &#8220;I&#8217;m behind you 1000%.&#8221; I missed her dearly when she moved to Austin in the 90s, far before everyone else figured out how cool Austin was, but that just meant countless road trips to visit and crash on her couch. The distance didn&#8217;t keep her from being there for every holiday and major event, including when I started to have jazz performances or host technology events in town. Whatever my interest was, she was there and supportive. As WordCamps started to become a thing, <a href="https://ma.tt/2009/05/wordcamp-sf-2009-2/mcm_0647-2/">she was there</a>. I always knew however much I messed up or people were mad at me (there were lots!) I could look out and see my sister&#8217;s face, there to comfort me.</p>



<p>Her influence on me didn&#8217;t stop with music and art. Charleen&#8217;s early research into genealogy, which included deep dives into libraries and making rubbings of gravestones, couldn&#8217;t be more perfect for my first foray into relational databases. We learned together how to set up the structures in MySQL and phpMyAdmin to represent all of the genealogical information in tables, which complemented the PHP I was learning to <a href="https://mullenweg.com/">create Mullenweg.com</a>, still up today. Before I built any other content management systems the first content I was managing was Charleen&#8217;s and my Uncle Colin&#8217;s research.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re a sibling and want to be as awesome as Charleen, start with this: Unflappable, unwavering support, and honesty. My entrepreneurial path was not straight up and to the right: It included many twists and turns, close calls, borrowing money, huge mistakes, but I always knew Charleen was a phone call away. Her sharp intellect was able to slice through whatever I was struggling with, able to back and support me however I needed in that situation. You can jump further when you feel like you have a safety net, and my family has always been that for me. There have been times when it felt like the entire internet was calling for my head, nobody liked me, I couldn&#8217;t do anything right, but Charleen was always there.</p>



<p>They say there&#8217;s family you choose and family that you&#8217;re born with. Well, if there&#8217;s any sliver of truth to the idea from a movie like <a href="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soul_(2020_film)">Pixar&#8217;s Soul</a> that you have some choice in the matter of where you end up being born, I&#8217;m delighted that I chose to be born as a little brother to Charleen. Because we saw so many other examples of familial relationships torn asunder, we never wanted that to happen to us, so we&#8217;ve always maintained that ability to just let things go that don&#8217;t really matter as much as your lifelong bond.</p>



<p>Charleen, thank you for a lifetime of love and support, from my first breaths to our latest adventures. You inspire me to be a better human. I can&#8217;t imagine being as successful at anything I&#8217;ve done in life without you there behind me. I&#8217;ll do my best to follow your example of always being behind you 1000%. You&#8217;re the best sister I ever could have wished for. At this half-century mark, let us count our blessings and plan many more shenanigans. </p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Sun, 28 Jul 2024 05:15:02 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:4:"Matt";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:11;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:70:"WPTavern: #129 – Eneko Garrido on How WordPress Transformed His Life";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:48:"https://wptavern.com/?post_type=podcast&p=157542";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:84:"https://wptavern.com/podcast/129-eneko-garrido-on-how-wordpress-transformed-his-life";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:32904:"Transcript<div>
<p>[00:00:00] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Welcome to the Jukebox podcast from WP Tavern. My name is Nathan Wrigley.</p>



<p>Jukebox is a podcast which is dedicated to all things WordPress. The people, the events, the plugins, the blocks, the themes, and in this case how a visit to a WordCamp profoundly changed a life.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;d like to subscribe to the podcast, you can do that by searching for WP Tavern in your podcast, player of choice. Or by going to wptavern.com/feed/podcast. And you can copy that URL into most podcast players. If you have a topic that you&#8217;d like us to feature on the podcast, I&#8217;m keen to hear from you, and hopefully get you, or your idea, featured on the show. Head to wptavern.com/contact/jukebox, and use the form there.</p>



<p>So on the podcast today, we have Eneko Garrido. Eneko is a full stack developer who has made</p>



<p>significant contributions to the WordPress community since attending his first WordCamp in 2019. Eneko&#8217;s journey with WordPress began when he attended WordCamp Bilbao during a challenging time in his life, marked by anxiety and depression. This pivotal experience, not only transformed his career, but also enriched his personal life. Leading him to become a passionate contributor and advocate for the WordPress community.</p>



<p>We start off by discussing Eneko&#8217;s initial encounter with WordCamp Bilbao, where he felt a profound sense of belonging, and support from the vibrant WordPress community. Despite his initial hesitations, Eneko was drawn to the inclusive and welcoming environment, which motivated him to participate more actively in future WordCamps.</p>



<p>Eneko goes on to share how his role as a polyglot contributor for the Basque locale has been a consistent source of joy and purpose. His commitment to translating WordPress into Basque has not only helped the community, but also deepened his connection to his cultural heritage.</p>



<p>We get into the impact that word process had on Eneko&#8217;s life, from opening new career opportunities to fostering lasting friendships. Eneko credits the WordPress community with providing him with a supportive network that has helped him navigate various challenges, including his autism diagnosis in 2021.</p>



<p>Towards the end of the podcast we discuss Eneko&#8217;s preparations for delivering a talk at WordCamp Europe, a testament to his growth and confidence since this first WordCamp experience. Despite the daunting prospect of speaking to a large audience, Eneko remains resolute and grateful for the supportive community that has been instrumental in his journey.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re interested in hearing a heartfelt story about the life-changing potential of the WordPress community, this episode is for you.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;d like to find out more, you can find all of the links in the show notes by heading to wptavern.com/podcast, where you&#8217;ll find all the other episodes as well.</p>



<p>And so without further delay, I bring you Eneko Garrido.</p>



<p>I am joined on the podcast by Eneko Garrido. How are you doing?</p>



<p>[00:03:38] <strong>Eneko Garrido:</strong> I&#8217;m fine. I&#8217;m here in Torino today, and we are enjoying WordCamp Europe together.</p>



<p>[00:03:43] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Have you been to any WordCamps before?</p>



<p>[00:03:46] <strong>Eneko Garrido:</strong> Yes. WordCamps, yes, but this is my first WordCamp Europe. My first WordCamp was in 2019, that was WordCamp Bilbao. And since then, I tried to go to any WordCamp that I could. Today I&#8217;m here thanks to Yoast, because Yoast fund me with the diversity fund.</p>



<p>[00:04:04] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Oh, nice. I did not know that, but that&#8217;s really nice to know.</p>



<p>The WordPress community in Spain, by all accounts, is really strong at the moment. I know that a lot of countries have gone into a state of decline, really. Certainly in the UK, a lot of the events that were happening, 2019 was the last time they happened, and then Covid came and it didn&#8217;t really come back. But my understanding is that in Spain, it&#8217;s still a very vibrant community.</p>



<p>Now, you mentioned WordCamp in Bilbao. That&#8217;s going to be the main thing that we&#8217;re going to talk about today, because you&#8217;re doing an intriguing talk at WordCamp Europe. But before we get into that, will you just tell us a little bit about you. Stay away from the WordCamp Bilbao thing, but just tell us what you do on a daily basis. What&#8217;s your relationship with WordPress?</p>



<p>[00:04:46] <strong>Eneko Garrido:</strong> Okay, so I am a full stack developer. I have been working for the Renfe Group as a full stack developer. The Renfe Group is the Spanish railway company, the Spanish state owned railway company. Nowadays, I am not working because I left that job, and I live in Bilbao. So I am currently searching for new opportunities.</p>



<p>[00:05:08] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Well, thank you for telling us all about that. So first of all, I&#8217;m just going to read off my piece of paper in front of me, about what the subject is going to be. And just to let you know, dear listener, I often go through the WordCamp presentation titles, and I find ones that I think are going to be of interest to the listeners to this podcast, and I picked Eneko&#8217;s one, and let&#8217;s see how this conversation goes.</p>



<p>Normally I write down a whole ton of questions, and I know more or less what I&#8217;m going to ask. But in this case, it&#8217;s going to be more of a conversation. We&#8217;ll see where it goes. And it goes like this. So the podcast discussion subject, how the WordPress community changed my life: how joining the community after having a bad lifetime changed the way to see the world. And it sounds like, at some point in the past, you were having a difficult time. And then you discovered that there was a thing called WordCamp Bilbao, you attended, and in your own words, the community changed your life. So let&#8217;s go back, rewind the clock, tell us the story.</p>



<p>[00:06:09] <strong>Eneko Garrido:</strong> So in 2019 I was finishing my compulsory studies in Spain. I was 16 year old little person that was simply trying to finish the studies, and because of some sort of depression, anxiety, I had to leave the college. I repeated that course okay. Then I was at home, and I seen on the WordPress dashboard of my own website that I run, that one event was near me, that was WordCamp Bilbao.</p>



<p>At that moment, I was living in Pamplona, the city that I have born on. I seen WordCamp Bilbao, and I thought, what is this? I asked my parents, and they looked me like, where are you going? They said to me, do whatever you want. As you are not going classes and you are all day in bed, you can take the bus, go to the grandfather&#8217;s house that is in Bilbao, it&#8217;s the place that I am currently living, and go to that WordCamp.</p>



<p>The first day of that WordCamp was a little bit strange, because was in a maritime museum. I didn&#8217;t went there in my life. There was three tracks. One that was announced as basic. The other one was as advanced, and the other one was, I don&#8217;t know what was announced like. It was a little bit strange because I was there alone, didn&#8217;t know anything and anyone.</p>



<p>The day passed with some few things that I remember. The person that was here seated, Fernando Tellado, he wasn&#8217;t going to that specific WordCamp, and that was a little strange thing, because Fernando Tellado has normally goes to every WordCamp in Spain, and I didn&#8217;t know who was Fernando Tellado. And I remember the moment that someone went to the stage and said, now we are going to call Fernando Tellado by phone, because Fernando Tellado is not here. We are going to call him, and talk with him in a moment. And was like, but who is Fernando Tellado? And later on I discovered who was Fernando Tellado, and then I understand everything.</p>



<p>I remember the moment when I connected really with the community. Was a moment on the contributor day. On the contributor day, I didn&#8217;t know neither what it was. In Bilbao 2019, the contributor day was on the Sunday, okay? So the talks were on Saturday, and the contributor today on Sunday. Because in Spain, normally we do like that. Here in Torino has been the other way. Going to the contributor day, didn&#8217;t know what that was, with my computer on the backpack.</p>



<p>I&#8217;ve seen that was like some tables, with some topics like community, core, polyglots, design, all sort of things like that. And I choose the polyglots table. That was my first contributor day table. And then on the contributor day table, I met Luis Rull, that is also from the Spanish community. He&#8217;s a local manager of Spanish from Spain. He taught me to translate WordPress. And since then, every month I contribute to the WordPress translations.</p>



<p>I remember that he took a photo, and published it on Twitter, and said, here is Eneko Garrido, 16 year old person that is a few months older than WordPress, and he&#8217;s here contributing to WordPress. And I remember that he mentioned to Matt. And that moment, I was like, who is Matt? So that was my first WordCamp experience. Until the contributor day, I didn&#8217;t network with anyone really.</p>



<p>So that is one thing that I said, all the WordCamps, it must be compulsory to go to contributor day, especially for the new people on the community, on the new people that is the first WordPress event. They have to be on the contributor day, because it&#8217;s the day where people is talking, is doing networking. It&#8217;s not like in that hour I have to be on that room, because here talks, I don&#8217;t know. Francisco Torres, who is a very plugin guy, who&#8217;s going to talk about the plugins team. I don&#8217;t know, I think that the contributor day should be mandatory for the first time persons on WordPress event.</p>



<p>[00:10:36] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah, it&#8217;s kind of interesting. So the event that we are at now is three days long. The main event is two days long, and then there&#8217;s contributor day at the beginning. And exactly as you said, it&#8217;s the one day where more or less everybody&#8217;s in the same room at the same time, and they&#8217;re free to divert their attention, if you walk over and have a conversation with them.</p>



<p>Whereas, on the other two days, a lot of people are in conversations in the hallway, but also a lot of people are in presentations, and everybody&#8217;s got to be quiet, and you&#8217;re listening to the speaker and all that. So I completely get what you mean. The contributor day is a really important thing if you want to socialise.</p>



<p>Can I just go back, and you may not wish to reveal any of what I&#8217;m about to ask, and if you don&#8217;t, that&#8217;s fine, and we&#8217;ll exclude it from the podcast. But I&#8217;m just curious as to what was going on in your life at that time? Because I want to get to a point where we see the contrast between then and now. Because it feels like that is the story, the contrast of what you were like as that 16 year old, spending time in the house. It sounds from what you were saying that you didn&#8217;t get up, and didn&#8217;t have a lot of motivation, or interest and what have you. Are you willing to tell us what was going on? You don&#8217;t have to give us everything. You don&#8217;t have to give us anything, but if you are willing, then please feel free.</p>



<p>[00:11:49] <strong>Eneko Garrido:</strong> At that time, I was, as I said, finishing the studies. Through all my life, practically, I have suffered from bullying at the school. So going to school was, every day was, making harder for me. At that time I was having anxiety issues, some anxiety attacks in class. I had to quit from classes in the middle of the explanations of the teacher. And that was also because of my autism. I am autistic, and until 2021 I didn&#8217;t get an official diagnosis. That was the time that I went to the adult psychiatrist, because the young people psychiatrist of the public Spanish system, if you don&#8217;t say that you&#8217;re autistic when you born, they don&#8217;t say until you are 18 years old.</p>



<p>So at 2021 my psychiatrist said that, and from that time I started knowing me more, and understanding more things about me, like my ironies that I don&#8217;t catch. The ironies that people don&#8217;t catch about me. My really fear to socialise, fear and difficulty also to socialise. And until then I didn&#8217;t understand that much about me. That was probably why I was passing a bad time, and I decided to go to a WordCamp that I saw on my webpage.</p>



<p>[00:13:16] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Let&#8217;s just unpack that a little bit. So you&#8217;re obviously inside WordPress, you must have a website or something at this point, because you can see the dashboard. It may be that if you&#8217;re listening to this, you may have disabled this feature, but there&#8217;s a feature in the dashboard by default of WordPress, which is events. And it will geolocate, and it will tell you if there&#8217;s things coming up nearby.</p>



<p>It&#8217;s text on a screen. How on earth did you summon up the, let&#8217;s use the word courage, to see the text on the screen and think, yeah, that sounds like it could be, I don&#8217;t know, fun or whatever? Because, from everything that you said, my imagination goes to, you&#8217;ll see that, think, okay, there&#8217;s a WordCamp in Bilbao, I&#8217;m not going to that. What pushed you over the edge, because that sounds like an incredibly big jump?</p>



<p>[00:14:03] <strong>Eneko Garrido:</strong> The thing that pushed me to the edge really was the, not the word, the camp. So the part camp of the word WordCamp was what pushed me to the edge, because sounds like something more interesting than meet up. When I listen meet up, I say, okay, so meet up. People join together, and people that know each other join together to talk about something, okay. But when you listen the WordCamp, you think about the school camps. The camps that your parents send you on in summer. And I said, oh, that WordPress camp, oh, that must be very interesting. I could learn about it.</p>



<p>I clicked on WordCamp Bilbao, on the link, and that sent me to the WordCamp Bilbao page. And I saw, oh, there is a program with two days of things. I don&#8217;t know who is going to talk about, I don&#8217;t know, SEO, or security, or performance, but it seems very interesting this. That pushed me, and I said, okay, 20 Euros, perfect. The best 20 Euros I have spent on my life really.</p>



<p>[00:15:10] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Really remarkable. Also I&#8217;ve never heard it, you know, the WordCamp being such a profound change there. It associated in your head with, I don&#8217;t know, fun, or having something a little bit different. So you took yourself there, you got in the room, it was the contributor day, and I&#8217;m guessing from everything that you described about your relationship with being sociable, and I think you said you find that difficult to do.</p>



<p>How did you overcome that? Because I can also imagine you arriving at the venue and getting to the stairs and thinking, I&#8217;m just going to go home. So in you go. Was it a welcoming environment? Did you immediately connect with people, or was it a much more slow process? Where at the end of it you thought, well, that wasn&#8217;t too bad, or was it, well, that was fabulous, or somewhere in between?</p>



<p>[00:16:00] <strong>Eneko Garrido:</strong> The first thing that I think of when I arrived to WordCamp Bilbao was the doors opening, because I arrived like five minutes before the opening, so I was like the first after the volunteers and organisers. I&#8217;ve seen ,the sponsors stands and I was like, woah, this is serious. This is a conference. Woah, there are hosting companies here. I have a contract with that people.</p>



<p>Was like, I don&#8217;t know, they give me a bag, they give me a T-shirt, they give me some stickers. I saw also the WordPress logo with the pride flag on a pin. And that was like, woah, what is this? This is very cool. And the people was always with a smile, even when there were bad moments on the event, I don&#8217;t know, because something broke, or something like that, or people running because they arrived late for, I don&#8217;t know, always with a smile.</p>



<p>And that was one thing that caught me the attention because I thought I was, I&#8217;m not going to start a conversation with anyone. I feel like I could have done that, and that people that was on a small groups, if I started and go to any group, the group will open and take me into that group. And that was one thing that WordCamp Bilbao showed me about, you have to try to be more open.</p>



<p>Also it is one thing that WordPress is showing me, that I have to be more open and more, I don&#8217;t know how to say it, more helpful with each other, yeah. If someone comes here for talking with me, it&#8217;s like, oh yeah, probably I interest him or she to talk with me about, I don&#8217;t know, WordPress, my life or, I don&#8217;t know, anything, or his life. Here at WordCamp Turin I have met, I don&#8217;t know how many people, but nowadays we have NFC tags that gives you the contact details of the people, and that is awesome because if I don&#8217;t feel like I want to interact with anyone, I say, I don&#8217;t have social energy, but here you have my contact, here you have my Instagram account, my X account. X account, that sounds very bad, my Twitter account please. I don&#8217;t know, it&#8217;s like, we could talk tomorrow, or I don&#8217;t know, who knows? In the next WordCamp we could meet up.</p>



<p>[00:18:21] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I think one of the nice things about these events, that you learn over time is that, quite a few people that you meet at one event, will actually be at the next event. And there&#8217;s also a different philosophy. So if you go to an event, let&#8217;s say, oh, I don&#8217;t know, a networking event that&#8217;s got nothing to do with WordPress, that&#8217;s in a for-profit industry, everybody&#8217;s there for the reason of selling you something, or promoting something, and the whole setup feels different. Whereas at these WordCamps, most people who are wearing the T-shirts saying that they&#8217;re organising the event, are volunteers, they&#8217;re giving up their time for free. And it&#8217;s for the greater good of this project.</p>



<p>I often talk about this, but I still can&#8217;t work it out. I don&#8217;t know what it is about this community, but it seems to attract a whole bunch of nice people. And I think that&#8217;s one of the things, when I first attended a WordCamp, I immediately got that feeling. Just, wow, like you said, there&#8217;s smiling faces and, you know, if you wander near them, they open up, and what have you. And I just got the feeling, like a much more friendly feeling, and it stuck with me. So my first event was a WordCamp in London, and it left me with the impression, I want to do that again.</p>



<p>Did you have that? I imagine it wasn&#8217;t perfect. There are probably things where you thought, oh, that was a bit, you know, I wish that would&#8217;ve gone better, or maybe you didn&#8217;t attend everything that you wished to, whatever it may be. But at the end of that, did you come away thinking, right, this is my clan, this is my group, I&#8217;m going to go to more of those?</p>



<p>[00:19:51] <strong>Eneko Garrido:</strong> Yeah, I feel that. After WordCamp Bilbao, I feel like, yeah, I want more of this. The next day of the contributor day, I signed up for WordCamp Irun 2019, that was next month if I don&#8217;t remember. And I was like, woah, WordCamp Irun 2019, that also was a very special WordCamp because was a WordCamp where they invented, I think, a new format for the WordCamps, that was called WordPress on the Street.</p>



<p>So that was, one day, the Friday. They put it on, place to talk on the street, on the very big street of Irun. And there was people talking there about WordPress, and there was people on the bars that were in that place looking and saying, I don&#8217;t know what is WordPress, but I am enjoying of this. And there was people of the community that I didn&#8217;t know at that time. But I remember that Joan Boluda, who is very known on this WordPress world, was talking on the street for free.</p>



<p>One guy that sells courses online was talking about, I don&#8217;t remember what, on the street. It is a format that hasn&#8217;t been done again on Irun, and I think that could be done again, because that attracted a lot of people of Irun.</p>



<p>[00:21:20] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I&#8217;ve never heard of that, and I think that&#8217;s such a neat idea. If you get the location just right, and I guess you&#8217;ve got to have it near the venue, or what have you, and there are people passing by. Yeah, that&#8217;s really fascinating. I genuinely haven&#8217;t heard of that before.</p>



<p>What are the bits that you found yourself being drawn towards in the community? You obviously showed up at that event, and you didn&#8217;t know which bits, well, you probably didn&#8217;t even know what tables there were going to be. After that, where have you found yourself being drawn to? Is there a bit of the community that you enjoy more, I don&#8217;t know, security, core, or whatever?</p>



<p>[00:21:49] <strong>Eneko Garrido:</strong> I always have enjoyed polyglots team. I am also currently a GT of the Basque locale. So I submit and I approve the changes on the Basque locale translations. Since then, every WordCamp, I have been on the Polyglots table. In Bilbao, I manage myself in Bilbao, this year, I managed myself the Polyglot&#8217;s table. And we recruited new translators for Basque. Because Basque is a locale that is a little bit, not very translated. Needs a very big push.</p>



<p>But the thing is that, not too much people know Basque. In Spain, if you don&#8217;t do that in Bilbao, in the Basque country, you will never get someone that will translate to Basque. And I&#8217;ve been on the Core table for my first time, and that was a very good experience because I sent a pull request for Gutenberg, for making the interactivity API from JavaScript to TypeScript, for making the types, and type checking, and all sort of things to prepare it for the 6.6 release.</p>



<p>[00:23:02] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So you said that, since Bilbao, you&#8217;ve been to more or less all the local WordCamps. You haven&#8217;t missed anything. I guess what I&#8217;m trying to tease out of this episode, and we&#8217;re getting to that point now is, has it changed your life? Do you feel that, because it&#8217;s so difficult to imagine, when we say WordPress, it&#8217;s software. You download it from the internet, and you put it on a server, and you have a website of some kind. But it isn&#8217;t that, it&#8217;s much more than that. It&#8217;s this community, it&#8217;s a philosophy, it&#8217;s events.</p>



<p>How profound has it been? If you were to trace it back to that moment at Bilbao, can you honestly say that it is WordPress, and all that means, that has transformed things. And, has it made your life better? Have you got new friendships, and a better quality of life because of those friendships and so on?</p>



<p>[00:23:50] <strong>Eneko Garrido:</strong> Yeah. If I hadn&#8217;t go to WordCamp Bilbao, I wouldn&#8217;t be here probably. And also, probably, I wouldn&#8217;t have work at the place that I was working until a few months. And I wouldn&#8217;t met a lot of people that is very good people. All people in the Spanish communities is very good people. I love them so much.</p>



<p>[00:24:14] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> So you&#8217;ve made real friendships. Because you can make a lot of acquaintances in the WordPress space. People that you know, you know their face. You can say hi to them, but you might not, I don&#8217;t know, go out for a meal with them or something like that, and really class them as friends. But you&#8217;ve managed to make those relationships real friendships.</p>



<p>[00:24:29] <strong>Eneko Garrido:</strong> Yeah, I made very strong relationships. For instance, with Paco Marchante, who is from the plugins team, with his girlfriend Paula Carmona. We have a group, and we talk every day. They are like my reference in friends, and I have made a very strong friendship relationship with them.</p>



<p>[00:24:51] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You mentioned some of the things that you have to deal with. Do you find that the way that you can communicate with your friends in WordPress, because often a lot of it&#8217;ll be, I don&#8217;t know, Slack channels or something like that, does that work better for you? So it&#8217;s not like you&#8217;re always going to be, I don&#8217;t know, meeting up in a bar, or going to a live event. A lot of it will take place on text-based things, where you can do that in the comfort of your own home. Does that aspect of it make it easier for you?</p>



<p>[00:25:18] <strong>Eneko Garrido:</strong> Yeah, a lot. A lot because it&#8217;s like, today I don&#8217;t want to socialise, so I don&#8217;t look my phone, and everything perfect. Instead, if we meet on a bar, it&#8217;s like, no guys, I won&#8217;t be going today, sorry. And it&#8217;s like more for that. I don&#8217;t meet up at the bar for that.</p>



<p>With WordPress, the Slack channels are like my newsletter for all days. I try to maintain myself reading every day the Making WordPress Core Slack channel, because it&#8217;s like newsletter of WordPress, using new PRs, using new features, new bugs. Someone says one day, today is hunting day, so we are going to meet up here to review, I don&#8217;t know, review issues. Sometimes it&#8217;s like, I don&#8217;t going to text because I am a little bit shy, but I am going to read you, and I am going to follow you, and probably someday I will say something.</p>



<p>[00:26:16] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> Yeah. I mean, it really does feel like, the way that people communicate in the WordPress community, I mean, obviously there are events like this, where you can meet up people face-to-face and what have you. But it does lend itself really well to, you can do it whilst you&#8217;re in the comfort of your own home, you can be sitting eating breakfast and having these conversations. You can have your laptop, watching the telly at the same time. You can really make the environment that you&#8217;re in really comfortable, and exactly what you want, and be socialising at the same time.</p>



<p>Now, everything that you&#8217;ve said, we&#8217;re at the biggest WordCamp there is. It&#8217;s about 3000 people. It&#8217;s really big. And you&#8217;ve laid out this story, and yet you&#8217;re going to be given a presentation here. And first of all, how are you feeling about that? Are you feeling okay about that? Let&#8217;s just leave it like that.</p>



<p>[00:26:58] <strong>Eneko Garrido:</strong> When I arrived the first day here, that was on the contributor day, and I saw the track one, that is the place where I am going to talk, that was like, oh, yeah, it was that big. Here fit probably 2000 people, and was like, woah. And on contributor day, when I was on the photography team as a volunteer, I went up on the stage to do some photos, to do the family photo. And I&#8217;ve seen all people there, I was like, oh, I want to go now to a local store, buy some Apple Vision Pro glasses, or something like that, that is very new. And they announce like, you won&#8217;t see anything from outside, put some images from the Alps or something like that, and start doing my slides. Because that is like, woah, I don&#8217;t know how I am going to feel tomorrow to do this.</p>



<p>[00:27:53] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> I hope it goes well. I mean, I really do. From everything that you&#8217;ve told me, it seems like you&#8217;ve come on a really profoundly life-changing journey. Honestly, it is very, very rare that I talk to somebody, and I talk to a lot of people, whose actual life has been kind of turned upside down in a good way by the software, and the community around the software.</p>



<p>More often than not we&#8217;re talking about plugins, or themes, or code, or what have you. It&#8217;s deeply affecting me this story, I think it&#8217;s really amazing. And it sounds like it&#8217;s allowing you to do a lot of things that you wish to do. The community supporting you, helping you, and I hope that it goes well tomorrow. I&#8217;m sure that it&#8217;ll be fine because you know that, despite the fact that there might be large numbers of people in the audience, all of those people are, it sounds a bit corny, but all of those people are nice people, and they&#8217;re wishing you the best. So I really hope it goes well tomorrow. And I&#8217;d just like to say thank you for sharing your story. That was really interesting.</p>



<p>[00:28:51] <strong>Eneko Garrido:</strong> Thank you for you for this opportunity for me talking here, because this was like, oh, someone wants for me to talk on a podcast. I received an Slack message, and I was like, woah, what is this? I am dreaming or something like that. This only happens to the big talkers, to the biggest speakers of WordCamps. Thank you for you, for this opportunity to be here today.</p>



<p>[00:29:16] <strong>Nathan Wrigley:</strong> You are very, very, welcome. Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today. Really appreciate it.</p>
</div>



<p>On the podcast today we have Eneko Garrido.</p>



<p>Eneko is a full-stack developer who has made significant contributions to the WordPress community since attending his first WordCamp in 2019. Eneko&#8217;s journey with WordPress began when he attended WordCamp Bilbao during a challenging time in his life, marked by anxiety and depression. This pivotal experience not only transformed his career but also enriched his personal life, leading him to become a passionate contributor and advocate for the WordPress community.&nbsp;</p>



<p>We start off by discussing Eneko&#8217;s initial encounter with WordCamp Bilbao, where he felt a profound sense of belonging and support from the vibrant WordPress community. Despite his initial hesitations, Eneko was drawn to the inclusive and welcoming environment, which motivated him to participate more actively in future WordCamps.</p>



<p>Eneko goes on to share how his role as a polyglot contributor for the Basque locale has been a consistent source of joy and purpose. His commitment to translating WordPress into Basque has not only helped the community, but also deepened his connection to his cultural heritage.</p>



<p>We get into the impact that WordPress has had on Eneko&#8217;s life, from opening new career opportunities, to fostering lasting friendships. Eneko credits the WordPress community with providing him with a supportive network that has helped him navigate various challenges, including his autism diagnosis in 2021.</p>



<p>Towards the end of the podcast, we discuss Eneko&#8217;s preparations for delivering a talk at WordCamp Europe, a testament to his growth and confidence since his first WordCamp experience. Despite the daunting prospect of speaking to a large audience, Eneko remains resolute and grateful for the supportive community that has been instrumental in his journey.</p>



<p>If you&#8217;re interested in hearing a heartfelt story about the life-changing potential of the WordPress community, this episode is for you.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Useful links</h2>



<p>Eneko&#8217;s presentation at WordCamp Europe 2024: <a href="https://europe.wordcamp.org/2024/session/how-the-wordpress-community-changed-my-life/">How the WordPress community changed my life</a></p>



<p><a href="https://yoast.com/yoast-diversity-fund/">Yoast diversity fund</a></p>



<p><a href="https://www.renfe.com/es/en/renfe-group/renfe-group">Renfe Group</a></p>



<p><a href="https://bilbao.wordcamp.org/2024/">WordCamp Bilbao</a></p>



<p><a href="https://wptavern.com/podcast/128-fernando-tellado-on-ai-tools-and-rehumanising-the-web">Fernando Tellado&#8217;s Jukebox podcast epsiode about AI Tools and Rehumanising the Web</a></p>



<p><a href="https://irun.wordcamp.org/2022/">WordCamp Irun</a></p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 24 Jul 2024 14:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:14:"Nathan Wrigley";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:12;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:96:"Do The Woo Community: The Buyer’s View, Scaling Enterprise with Karim Marucchi and Tom Willmot";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"https://dothewoo.io/?p=84784";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:91:"https://dothewoo.io/the-buyers-view-scaling-enterprise-with-karim-marucchi-and-tom-willmot/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:34399:"<div class="wp-block-group has-border-color has-light-gray-background-color has-background has-small-font-size has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-container-core-group-is-layout-20 wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained">
<p class="has-secondary-color has-text-color has-link-color wp-elements-9acf640b7ba38a84a982fc35d618387f">This show is sponsored by&#8230;</p>



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<p class="wp-container-content-10"><strong><a href="https://www.avalara.com/us/en/products/enterprise.html" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Avalara</a></strong>:  providing cloud-based and scalable global tax compliance that is hassle-free, safe and secure plus topped off with enterprise-class security.</p>
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Episode Transcript
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<p>Karim:<br />Well, hello, welcome to Scaling Enterprise WordPress and Open Source Software. This is the Buyer’s View. As you might remember from our last episode, we are going to be doing two podcasts a month: one that is closer to the buyer’s view and helps the enterprise see how to engage and work with WordPress and open source software, and the other side will be more of a community-focused WordPress project podcast around how the project and WordPress can focus on the enterprise in certain areas. My name is Karim from the Scale Consortium. I&#8217;m also CEO of Crowd Favorite. With me is Tom Willmot. Tom?</p>



<p>Tom:<br />Hello. Great to be here. Excited to be kicking this off, what I hope becomes a regular thing for us. I&#8217;m also a founding member of the Scale Consortium and the CEO and co-founder of Human Made. Yeah, excited to get into this.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />Me too. Me too. So let&#8217;s jump right in. We at the Scale Consortium figured that it was time to have a group that unified and had a singular voice around helping the enterprise navigate open source software and WordPress specifically and its options. Tom, how do you see how we do that?</p>



<p>Tom:<br />Yeah, I mean, good to probably just step back and talk about that a little bit. The challenge we have in the enterprise WordPress space, and I think the challenge buyers face is compared to the single vendor options that are out there where they can talk to the buyer with a unified message and simplified positioning. The strength of the WordPress ecosystem is it&#8217;s really broad and deep and that brings lots of benefits. There&#8217;s lots of choice and flexibility, but it does mean that as a buyer you can look at all of that and it can be a bit overwhelming. It can be a bit confusing. Where do you go? At Scale Consortium, we come together and we work together across vendors within the space to give that clear view.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />Well, one of the things I hear most is if an enterprise wants to approach WordPress, where do they go? Do they go to a host?</p>



<p>Tom:<br />Right? Who&#8217;s the vendor? Maybe they turn up to a host, maybe they find an agency. But yeah, it&#8217;s not so simple.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />And then on the community side, folks argue that if you go to one vendor or one host, you&#8217;re going to get their flavor of WordPress. One of the things that I&#8217;m hoping that we&#8217;re going to dive into is that really you can customize WordPress to do almost anything, but the point here is that there are no flavors of WordPress. There are flavors of Linux that are forks. This is all the same WordPress, right? It&#8217;s just the special sauce that any one team might bring to it or the special sauce that any one host or any other one product might bring to it. But WordPress is not the same type of complex ecosystem that operating systems were for the last 40 years. So let&#8217;s dive right into the introduction to why WordPress. Its current market share is 43% of the internet. So it has very strong strengths, right?</p>



<p>Tom:<br />Yes. Even amongst the kind of enterprise tier, it&#8217;s pretty dominant depending on how you&#8217;re talking about measuring it. It’s certainly true that the vast majority of enterprises, the vast majority of businesses, have got WordPress somewhere, even if they&#8217;re not using it as their primary CMS, they&#8217;re using WordPress somewhere in their organization. And actually there&#8217;s plenty that are using it as their primary, but I think that&#8217;s secondary. The CMS kind of narrative is the WordPress history is quite relevant, I suppose, to how WordPress started to break into business and how that&#8217;s evolved over time.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />But if it’s a generalist platform and it’s being used as that secondary system, is it just vanilla is the problem we run into all the time? We have a hard time explaining to folks that what ends up happening is this isn’t just a generalist system that can’t help you with your specific need because the WordPress project is so general, you can actually bring it and customize it for your specific needs without having to use the technical term fork, without having to fork the code, without having to move away from it. You can adapt it to your needs. It’s so adaptable, which is what I think some of the successes out there are, right?</p>



<p>Tom:<br />Sure, yeah, a hundred percent. That means that the barrier to entry actually is quite low. It’s quite easy to get going with WordPress and then you can customize it and it’ll flex with you and scale with you. There’s WordPress out of the box. Of course, if you’re an enterprise user of WordPress, you do need some stuff on top of that, right? You have specific common needs across enterprise or workflows or governance or digital asset management or whatnot. And so there’s this layer of stuff that exists in the ecosystem that does make WordPress meet the needs of enterprise. And then of course you get the vertical-specific needs too, whether that’s higher education, financial institutions, or publishing.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />But I want to jump into this question of the first choice versus second choice, because I remember the way I approached WordPress when we first came into the space was automatically assuming it was going to be a first choice. One of our larger projects that we started now 14 years ago, it was the first choice. So I came to the WordPress larger enterprise community thinking, oh, let&#8217;s do that. And then I was shocked to find out that more than one of the managed hosts, their marketing was all targeted towards WordPress as a secondary enterprise. They had one of those monolithic enterprise systems as their .com, and then the host was saying, we&#8217;re never going to get that .com, so we&#8217;re actually going to market as put your .com out there with this monolithic system and then after that, or proprietary system. And then after that, all these smaller sites that you don&#8217;t want to invest so much time in those ones can actually be on WordPress. And that shocked me. I mean, how did you find that back then?</p>



<p>Tom:<br />Yeah, I mean, I think to some degree that reflects how WordPress usually comes to be used by an organization, which is usually bottom up. It&#8217;s usually people in the organization who are on the front lines using these tools and they want to use WordPress. Maybe they&#8217;re familiar with it, maybe they&#8217;ve used it somewhere else, and then they&#8217;ll fight internally to get WordPress. And so maybe it comes into one specific team or one department rather than those large rollouts, which are usually top down run by IT or something. I think what we&#8217;ve seen over the last decade, it started out like that actually.</p>



<p>Now there are plenty of organizations where that the WordPress gets its foot in the door and then it works its way through the organization and unseats the primary CMS. And so I think that’s great. WordPress is definitely validated as a great primary option. And if anything, I think that’s the biggest gap now to close because we are, how do we make the jump from people inside organizations fighting the fight to get WordPress? How do we make that jump to the top down the IT rollouts or digital strategy rollouts?</p>



<p>Karim:<br />And that’s interesting because I’ve always tried to address it specifically as how do we head to head compare ourselves to these monolithic proprietary systems and how do we show that we can feature for feature or more importantly business need by business need actually come up to that level? Because people still think of WordPress as this, oh, it’s just a CMS. Oh, it’s just to push pages and articles not necessarily can help me integrate data from many different sources or so forth or so on. So it’s interesting to see that there’s part of the market that is still thinking of it this way as second choice.</p>



<p>And then there’s the other part of the market that’s saying, how do we actually show that we can do this? And more and more case studies are coming up that way. You’ve worked on a giant major European bank as WordPress being the first open source. We’ve worked on one of the largest media companies with WordPress being the first choice, the .com, so to speak, of all their major sites. So it works that way. But how do we get that message out? And I guess that falls down to the enterprise needs. What do you think about that? What are the enterprise needs?</p>



<p>Tom:<br />I think that’s the opportunity here, right? Because actually the enterprise needs, I think particularly these days, the trends that we’re seeing in the industry actually I think pair very well with WordPress around total cost of ownership, the need for a lot of flexibility that just increases and increases. We’ve seen this kind of trend of all-in-one DXP, which feels like it’s peaked and now, and actually we want to own more of our stack and be able to swap pieces out, and we need it to integrate with the long tail of things that we are using across the enterprise. And so actually that really starts to, WordPress actually been a particularly good fit for a lot of those needs. And again, it’s like we’ve got to form clear messaging around that so that enterprises are aware and they&#8217;re being told that they can discover that for themselves. It doesn’t need to come up through this backdoor, secondary route.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />So the general WordPress project as an open source project needs to stay communicating that we can be all things to all people. And because most of the internet are smaller sites in the enterprise space, we&#8217;re a very small subset of clients by volume. What ends up happening is it’s a very small voice. So then it becomes up to the Scale Consortium podcasts like this one, the agencies, and products that want to work with the enterprise to try and communicate that. What we need to do is try to bring together some</p>



<p>sort of unified messaging because those needs aren’t being met. If a particular host or product or an agency is saying, oh, well let me show you how I do it in this one exact example, they get pigeonholed right away. Most people are very surprised to find out that WordPress can be used as the central hub of an ERP system. There are large medium enterprises, not necessarily the Fortune 100, but right below that, that are using WordPress to manage content on what could be classified as an ERP system, not just a CMS or a marketing solution. You’d say, why would you do that? Why wouldn’t you use one of those other applications? And I feel that the bottom line of the need of the enterprise is not what is the name of the package, what is the technology? What programming language am I going to use? What’s going to solve the business need? And in this particular case, going back to quoting Matt Mullenweg from WordCamp San Francisco, 2010 or 2012, it takes five minutes to learn how to publish a page. Bottom line.</p>



<p>Tom:<br />That time to publish and the flexibility of that, again, it is something actually we can often take for granted. I think within the community, we often have this experience when we are demoing to clients and actually it&#8217;s the stuff that we forget is actually quite groundbreaking already. The fact that you can log in and edit a page and publish it, have it live within five, 10 minutes, and those things are not actually true across the rest of the competitors.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />Exactly, exactly.</p>



<p>Tom:<br />Yeah. This kind of central hub piece, I wonder if that&#8217;s something we certainly see a lot. I imagine it’s similar in the work you are doing where actually customers are building DXPs, they do end up with a DXP, but they&#8217;ve put it together themselves with WordPress at the center and all of these other pieces. And so it&#8217;s true that the world has the needs of enterprise that have evolved beyond just CMS. Absolutely. There&#8217;s a bunch of other pieces now, but WordPress doesn&#8217;t need to be all those things. What WordPress needs to do is integrate really well with them.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />That&#8217;s the key. That’s the key, right? Because both of us have done presentations on how you&#8217;ve built a DXP centered on WordPress and it&#8217;s an amazing product, and we&#8217;ve done this composable direction, which we&#8217;re going to talk about a little bit later, but this composable direction. But the key is integrating. The key is for all these folks, all the folks who might be listening who have been around the block a few times, old school, 1990s, system integration of middleware. If you think of it in those terms, WordPress is a great connector.</p>



<p>Tom:<br />Yeah. That&#8217;s usually where we find clients end up in actually. They&#8217;ve got WordPress as that central hub.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />So how do you address when you end up going to an enterprise client and you have the technical team of the enterprise, the client goes, but it’s WordPress, it’s a blog. How do you address that?</p>



<p>Tom:<br />Yeah, I think that is something that&#8217;s improved quite a lot, certainly over the last five years. I think the number one thing is just that the WordPress, there are so many examples now of WordPress being used really for the very biggest stuff on the internet across almost all verticals. And so you can usually rely on just a lot of direct evidence. Actually, that’s not the case. So usually it&#8217;s a mix of lots of case studies, lots of references, and lots of demos that you can show and demonstrate. And perhaps five or 10 years ago, you perhaps were on the cutting edge if you were trying to use work with the scale. Actually that’s just completely normal now. And the concern is just out of date. And so you can just show all of the evidence. And actually there are many more examples. There are many more high scale WordPress sites than most of these other platforms actually.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />No, exactly. Exactly. So I think we&#8217;ve reached the part where it&#8217;s time for a small break and when we come back, Tom, I think you&#8217;re going to head us off with talking about the evolution of content management and how we got here. See everybody in a minute. Thank you.</p>



<p>Tom:<br />Okay, welcome back. So Karim, we touched a little bit in that previous section on the evolution of the enterprise CMS and the evolution of content management and how WordPress fits into them. And so I think that’d be good to just dive in on a bit and expand on. One of the things I often reflect on is that the narratives out in the industry, the buzzwords, the framing, the structure of how we think about enterprise CMS has actually historically mostly been set by the competitors to WordPress. So I think this is an opportunity, right, for WordPress to start actually putting its vision for enterprise CMS forward and more that maybe you can do as a bit of an explainer on that.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />Well, yeah, because if you look at the history, content management systems started out what we used to call OnPrem, right, on premises. And then with the evolution of SaaS and the evolution of not just software as a service, but just thinking of things being not within your own system but putting together lots of other systems. You ended up with just this expectation that it was out there in somebody else&#8217;s system. But there’s a lot of Fortune customers and there’s a lot of mid-market enterprise companies that say, we need our data internally.</p>



<p>And one thing that’s vastly overlooked is that if you&#8217;re using open source and specifically WordPress as this hub that we were talking about, that lets you literally own your data and actually keep solid control over what&#8217;s being shared outside. It&#8217;s not about points of failure necessarily, although it can be. It&#8217;s not about having things across 12 or 15 different SaaS’s out there and different companies having access to your data. You solve all of those things if you are centralizing saying that your source of truth is your content management system. And that is an evolutionary piece that&#8217;s been lost in the last 10 years of the MarTech stack explosion of SaaS products, I feel.</p>



<p>Tom:<br />Yeah, I couldn&#8217;t agree more. A common occurrence for us, which I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ll run into too, it will be working with a new client who are wanting to move to WordPress and a driver of that move is that they have bought into a legacy CMS or a CMS that is now legacy in which the company behind it actually are no longer around or they&#8217;re no longer supporting it. Maybe they&#8217;ve built a new product and the cost to move to that new product is the same as the cost to move to WordPress. Actually, that’s a pretty dominant frame for the industry. A lot of enterprises make the decisions over a five to 10-year cycle because actually that&#8217;s the cycle. That&#8217;s the lifetime of a lot of these platforms that in five to 10 years they&#8217;re going to be legacy and you&#8217;re going to want to move to something new. A lot of the education we are doing as part of a WordPress installation is that&#8217;s actually not true in open source. We&#8217;ve got a much longer time horizon ahead and you&#8217;re not going to need to move off in five years because WordPress is still going to be around and innovating.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />I&#8217;m actually going to challenge that, Tom. I&#8217;m going to say I don&#8217;t see clients that are spending in a total of five years on a platform before saying they want to move.</p>



<p>Tom:<br />Like you&#8217;re seeing it come down.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />I&#8217;m seeing it come down because of their marketing so hard against each other. Sure. If you look at the market leaders in the DXP area, they&#8217;re marketing so hard against each other that they&#8217;re innovative and the others aren’t.</p>



<p>Tom:<br />It&#8217;s true.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />They&#8217;re marketing so hard against each other about how they&#8217;re better that CMOs and CIOs are saying, well, maybe it&#8217;s worth the cost of migration and they&#8217;re bouncing. Or if it is a longer-term thing, it&#8217;s because they created a bespoke dead end of their own that the cost of owning it is so high that they&#8217;re like, okay, now what do we do? And coming back to your point, doing something with a platform like WordPress that doesn&#8217;t have major migrations,</p>



<p>Tom:<br />No, sure.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />It’s not free. You actually need to maintain it, right? Which is another misconception.</p>



<p>Tom:<br />I mean it’s actually a big difference even between WordPress and Drupal, which are the two open source platforms, but Drupal actually does have this cadence of major backwards compatibility breaking releases, which we see from the WordPress side whereas a user of Drupal seven, you&#8217;ve got to make the decision, okay, I&#8217;m going to spend a bunch of money moving to Drupal 10, or actually maybe I&#8217;ll move to something else.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />And another nod to Matt and the way he&#8217;s thought of the WordPress project, Matt Mullenweg, in the sense that he has been really steadfast about not breaking backwards compatibility sometimes even to the point where you and I are frustrated in thinking how can we move the platform forward? But it&#8217;s really helped us in that long-term future. So as I&#8217;ve seen the SaaS companies market harder and clients have more and more choices and flip even more, the more I&#8217;ve seen the total cost of ownership come down for staying on something like WordPress, the more I&#8217;ve seen the cost of migration be not just money, but also the time aspect and the retraining of your employee base. So it&#8217;s been very hard to understand exactly how to relate this back to customers because they&#8217;ve only seen the last 10 years of marketing that again, these marketing budgets on these major platforms are huge and all these individual companies that are trying to help enterprises with WordPress are going, we can&#8217;t match that marketing of that major platform. That brings me to the one word that I</p>



<p>think has started to take over from just digital experience or digital transformation. There&#8217;s a lot around the word composable these days, and I know a lot of people assume that means, oh, I&#8217;m just going to compose three or four SaaS platforms, I&#8217;m going to compose my own system. We&#8217;ve come to realize that when they do that, they end up with a mess of the poor marketing staff that has 18 tabs open in a browser and to get one workflow done for marketing tasks, they&#8217;ve got quite literally six to seven different interfaces with six to seven different products that are trying to swap information back into each other, sometimes in real-time, sometimes not. Is there a way that this general tool of WordPress helps? We feel it does. How does your team deal with that with the vertical of the enterprise? How does your team try to address how can we not have customers do this?</p>



<p>Tom:<br />Yeah, I think we went through this phase with the kind of all-in-ones, whereas kind of this bundling phase and the dream there that was being sold was if everything&#8217;s all in one place, you&#8217;re not going to have to worry about it. You&#8217;ll get everything you ever need here. And usually that doesn&#8217;t work out right, because actually they&#8217;re too limiting and the stuff you need to do, they can&#8217;t innovate fast enough to keep up with the pace of change in the ecosystem. As then we&#8217;ve kind of swung the other way, okay, now it&#8217;s completely composable all of your tools just talk to each other. You can swap any of them out at any time. But again, that brings a bunch of challenges, right? Actually it ends up with a pretty brittle system. How do you do governance across 20, 30 different SaaS tools that you lose track of what you are being billed for? The person who set that SaaS tool up is left now and you can no longer log in. A bunch of challenges there.</p>



<p>I feel like you go through those cycles and you come back to meet a little bit in the middle where actually this hybrid CMS that sits at the center that absolutely can plug in to the stuff you want to use externally but is still providing a significant portion of your functionality and acts as that hub. The compromise between composability and all-in-one, I think the fully composable platforms inevitably will need to trend in that direction where actually there ends up being some hub or the management platform that ends up needing to be developed to just manage all those different SaaS tools becomes that hub over time probably. And same thing, we&#8217;re seeing the all-in-one DXPs trying to become as composable as possible as quickly as possible because realizing the limitations of all-in-one, and again, I think it’s that trend just plays really nicely for WordPress.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />But can an all-in-one solution be the best tool for every job?</p>



<p>Tom:<br />No, I think that’s the fundamental failure. Ultimately, they’re attractive to begin with and I think we’ve just seen that play out in the market where the pitch is very attractive and very compelling, and then the reality doesn’t deliver on that for a variety of reasons. And I think we just, we&#8217;ve seen that play out in the market. We&#8217;re past the peak of that. There are now plenty of organizations who&#8217;ve bought into that and either they&#8217;ve been paying for a bunch of tools they haven’t really got the value from, or they need to do stuff more quickly than the platform that they’re bought into is innovating and they&#8217;re starting to look around and want to use other stuff. And the bunch of those end up moving to something like WordPress. That’s part of the inflow we see into the WordPress market.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />Absolutely. Exactly. Well, so I feel like episode zero, our first episode with Brad gave us the concept of what the entire show&#8217;s about, and today we&#8217;ve laid out what the differences are between the two different shows and introduced the concepts of what we&#8217;re going to talk about. And with that, we agree completely as you were saying in talking to our friend Remkus from this community. I&#8217;m sure that the upcoming episodes where we&#8217;re going to talk about procurement, we&#8217;re going to have to talk about how to approach customers, we&#8217;re going to talk about how to service those customers. We&#8217;re going to talk about what the solutions are for the enterprise.</p>



<p>It’s going to be a little bit more of showing how we have a little bit of a different take on these things. But just from this conversation, I can see conversations around, like I said, speaking with a procurement specialist, speaking quite literally with somebody from some of these other monolithic platforms about what they feel they do best and having these conversations, talking about how to integrate well with SaaS and what that looks like, customized workflows. These are some of the topics that I feel like are coming down the pipeline in our next episodes that are really going to start asking and answering questions on how can we do better as a WordPress community in communicating this and give some information out to enterprise buyers on how they can approach any of the vendors who work with WordPress.</p>



<p>Tom:<br />It’s a nerdy thing to say, but I think it&#8217;s a pretty exciting time in the enterprise CMS space, right? There is actually a lot happening. There are some trends peaking. There are some new trends coming. There&#8217;s a lot of players in the space scrambling to figure out what that is. The analysts have all got their takes. Are we agile CMS? Are we composable? Is it composable content? There&#8217;s so many of these things. As a buyer, it’s pretty confusing. And a lot of these platforms at the moment you’re kind of like, okay, I&#8217;m going math, I&#8217;m all in on this, or I&#8217;m going with an all-in-one. And you&#8217;re kind of all in on that. So they&#8217;re pretty consequential decisions as well, I think, as a buyer. And so I think there’s a ton of scope for us to get into all of that debate, all of that. What&#8217;s the WordPress answer to a lot of these things? Again, that&#8217;s not really discussed much.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />I’d like to invite literally an analyst from one of the companies to come on and ask them why, besides the fact that it&#8217;s pay for play, why can&#8217;t we get any attention?</p>



<p>Tom:<br />Yeah, I think that would be great.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />As an open source.</p>



<p>Tom:<br />Yeah, I would love to do an episode on analysts and their place. I think there&#8217;s tons to say there. Yeah, well exciting stuff. Okay, good first episode and more to come.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />Absolutely. So Tom, tell us about Scaling Enterprise WordPress and Open Source.</p>



<p>Tom:<br />We are the buyer’s view, but we&#8217;ll be in the same feed as the sister cast that we&#8217;re going to be doing with Brad Williams, which is, as Karim said, the Enterprise WordPress community-focused version. And so we&#8217;ll be in the same feed. So you can listen to both of those. I think both are going to be interesting to everyone inside enterprise WordPress. If you’re a buyer, maybe you’re more interested in this buyer&#8217;s view one, add us to your favorite podcast subscription. Come along on this journey. And I think most of all, we are just starting out and so we really want to hear from people. What are you seeing out in the space? What are the questions people have got? What would they hope to get from a show like this? I think we&#8217;ll lead a lot on that as well as we go. Do people have questions that we can answer? Are there topics people would like us to cover? Are there people that it would be great to get on? Let us know and we&#8217;ll endeavor to do so.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />So go over to Do the Woo and check on our feeds and whichever podcast platform you&#8217;re using, and also feel free to go to scalecms.org and get in touch with us and ask us to do a particular topic or dive into something. We&#8217;d be happy to talk to you. We are really looking forward to bringing back some informative and useful information to help enterprises really understand how to better engage with WordPress and open source.</p>



<p>Tom:<br />Alright, a good place to finish. Thanks very much, Karim.</p>



<p>Karim:<br />Thank you Tom, it’s been awesome. Talk to you soon.</p>
</div>




<p>In this episode of <em><strong>Scaling Enterprise WordPress and Open Source Software</strong>,</em> hosts <strong>Karim Marucchi</strong> and <strong>Tom Willmot</strong> kick off <strong><em>The Buyer&#8217;s View.</em></strong> They discuss the challenges and benefits of using WordPress and open source software in the enterprise space and highlight the flexibility and adaptability of WordPress, which can be customized to meet specific needs without having to fork the code. </p>



<p>The talk move into the evolution of content management and how WordPress can serve as a central hub in a digital experience platform (DXP), integrating with other tools and systems. </p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Takeaways</h2>



<p><strong>Dual Podcast Approach</strong>: Do the Woo in partnership with the Scale Consortium is producing two podcasts a month: one focusing on the buyer&#8217;s perspective and the other on the community-focused WordPress project.</p>



<p><strong>Unifying Enterprise and Open Source</strong>: The Scale Consortium aims to provide a unified voice to help enterprises navigate open source software and WordPress, offering guidance on engagement and options.</p>



<p><strong>Enterprise Challenges</strong>: Enterprises face challenges with WordPress due to its broad and deep ecosystem, which can be overwhelming and confusing compared to single vendor options.</p>



<p><strong>Customization and Flexibility</strong>: WordPress can be highly customized without forking the code, making it adaptable for specific enterprise needs and serving as a versatile tool for various applications.</p>



<p><strong>Primary vs. Secondary CMS</strong>: There is a perception issue where WordPress is often seen as a secondary choice, but there are many examples of it being used as the primary CMS in major enterprises.</p>



<p><strong>Enterprise Needs Alignment</strong>: WordPress aligns well with current enterprise trends such as total cost of ownership, flexibility, and the need for integration with various tools and systems.</p>



<p><strong>Composability Trend</strong>: The concept of composability is becoming more prevalent, and WordPress serves well as a central hub for integrating various SaaS platforms and tools.</p>



<p><strong>Integration Capabilities</strong>: WordPress excels as a connector in a composable ecosystem, allowing for seamless integration with other systems and tools.</p>



<p><strong>Backward Compatibility</strong>: WordPress has a strong focus on backward compatibility, reducing the need for major migrations and ensuring long-term stability for enterprises.</p>



<p><strong>Marketing Challenges</strong>: The marketing budgets of major platforms overshadow the smaller voices advocating for WordPress, making it challenging to communicate its advantages effectively.</p>



<p><strong>Analyst Engagement</strong>: There is a desire to engage analysts and better understand why open source platforms like WordPress struggle to get the same level of attention as proprietary systems.</p>



<p><strong>Future Episodes</strong>: Future podcast episodes will cover topics such as procurement, customer approaches, service strategies, integration with SaaS, and customized workflows.</p>



<p><strong>Audience Engagement</strong>: The podcast invites listeners to provide feedback, ask questions, and suggest topics to ensure the content is relevant and valuable for enterprise buyers and the WordPress community.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Wed, 24 Jul 2024 09:00:00 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:13;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:55:"WordPress.org blog: WordPress 6.6.1 Maintenance Release";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:35:"https://wordpress.org/news/?p=17567";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:71:"https://wordpress.org/news/2024/07/wordpress-6-6-1-maintenance-release/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5729:"<p><strong>WordPress 6.6.1 is now available!</strong></p>



<p>This minor release features <a href="https://core.trac.wordpress.org/query?status=closed&id=!61692&milestone=6.6.1&group=status&col=id&col=summary&col=owner&col=type&col=priority&col=component&col=version&col=keywords&order=priority">7 bug fixes in Core</a> and <a href="https://core.trac.wordpress.org/ticket/61692#comment:4 ">9 bug fixes for the Block Editor</a>. You can review a summary of the maintenance updates in this release by reading the <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/2024/07/18/wordpress-6-6-1-rc1-is-now-available/">Release Candidate announcement</a>.</p>



<p>WordPress 6.6.1 is a short-cycle release. The next major release will be <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/6-7/">version 6.7</a> planned for November 2024.</p>



<p>If you have sites that support automatic background updates, the update process will begin automatically.</p>



<p>You can <a href="https://wordpress.org/wordpress-6.6.1.zip">download WordPress 6.6.1 from WordPress.org</a>, or visit your WordPress Dashboard, click “Updates”, and then click “Update Now”.</p>



<p>For more information on this release, please <a href="https://wordpress.org/support/wordpress-version/version-6-6-1">visit the HelpHub site</a>.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Thank you to these WordPress contributors</h2>



<p>This release was led by <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/hellofromTonya">Tonya Mork</a> and <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/ellatrix/">Ella</a>.</p>



<p>WordPress 6.6.1 would not have been possible without the contributions of the following people. Their asynchronous coordination to deliver maintenance fixes into a stable release is a testament to the power and capability of the WordPress community.</p>



<p class="is-style-wporg-props-long"><a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/jorbin">Aaron Jorbin</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/aaronrobertshaw">Aaron Robertshaw</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/wildworks">Aki Hamano</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/amitraj2203">Amit Raj</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/atachibana/">Akira Tachibana</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/afercia">Andrea Fercia</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/andrewserong">Andrew Serong</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/annezazu">annezazu</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/ambrosiawt">Art Smith</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/bgardner">Brian Gardner</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/poena">Carolina Nymark</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/cbirdsong">cbirdsong</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/butterflymedia">Ciprian</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/clarktbt">Clark</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/courane01">Courtney Robertson</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/talldanwp">Daniel Richards</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/davidbaumwald">David Baumwald</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/dmsnell">Dennis Snell</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/dd32">Dion Hulse</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/ellatrix">Ella</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/annubis">Eric-Oliver Mächler</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/fabiankaegy">Fabian Kägy</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/mamaduka">George Mamadashvili</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/jsnajdr">Jarda Snajdr</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/audrasjb">Jb Audras</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/joedolson">Joe Dolson</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/joen">Joen A.</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/jonsurrell">Jon Surrell</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/laurelfulford/">laurelfulford</a><a>, </a><a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/mciampini">Marco Ciampini</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/santosguillamot">Mario Santos</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/markhowellsmead">Mark Howells-Mead</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/mukesh27%20">Mukesh Panchal</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/neotrope">neotrope</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/swissspidy">Pascal Birchler</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/pbiron">Paul Biron</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/ramonopoly">ramonopoly</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/raquelandefeld">Raquel</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/youknowriad">Riad Benguella</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/richtabor">Rich Tabor</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/noisysocks">Robert Anderson</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/SergeyBiryukov">Sergey Biryukov</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/coffee2code/">Scott Reilly</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/sourav08">Sourav Pahwa</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/sabernhardt">Stephen Bernhardt</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/sunil25393">SunilPrajapati</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/hellofromTonya">Tonya Mork</a>, <a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/up1512001">up1512001</a>
</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">How to contribute</h2>



<p class="is-style-default">To get involved in WordPress core development, head over to Trac, <a href="https://core.trac.wordpress.org/report/6">pick a ticket</a>, and join the conversation in the <a href="https://wordpress.slack.com/archives/C02RQBWTW">#core</a> and <a href="https://wordpress.slack.com/archives/C07BTF54N68">#6-7-release-leads</a> channels. Need help? Check out the <a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/handbook/">Core Contributor Handbook</a>.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 23 Jul 2024 15:53:25 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:10:"Tonya Mork";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:14;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:82:"Do The Woo Community: Unpacking Blogging, a BlogStorm with Ronald Gijsel and BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:28:"https://dothewoo.io/?p=84738";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:80:"https://dothewoo.io/unpacking-blogging-a-blogstorm-with-ronald-gijsel-and-bobwp/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:44652:"Episode Transcript
<div class="wp-block-group has-global-padding is-layout-constrained wp-block-group-is-layout-constrained">
<p>BobWP:<br />So here&#8217;s the deal. The other day I was thinking about the three Cs: community, commenting, and coding. Okay, I lied. I wasn&#8217;t thinking about coding at all. Coding, I don&#8217;t think about it much. It&#8217;s never in my face. I know it&#8217;s there. I know people do great stuff with it. I hear people talk about it. So the only reason I put that in there is it just sounded better. I really wanted to talk about community, commenting, and blogging, but it just didn&#8217;t sound as good. But that is what has been on my mind lately. Well, actually I lied again because that wasn&#8217;t on my mind lately. It&#8217;s always on my mind. That&#8217;s all I think about is this stuff. So I got to quit lying about things and just get to the point here that it&#8217;s really something I am thinking about.</p>



<p>Like I said, a lot, those three things. And as a result, I got into some conversations. I had a conversation actually with Bryce from Metorik. I don&#8217;t know if any of you know him, but he was on the podcast lately. We were talking about community, the builder community where they can connect and talk. We threw a few ideas around. Then it moved into another whole thing because of some stuff going on. And of course, I had to have a conversation with Ronald, one of our hosts here, Ronald Gijsel, and we always have great conversations and we started talking about this stuff and we thought, why don&#8217;t we just take it live and talk about it? So, I twisted Ronald&#8217;s arm and he&#8217;s popping back in to actually, he called it, what did you call this? Do you remember what you called this?</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Different ideas. I think my latest is almost like unpacking blogging with Bob or was there another reference to that? It&#8217;ll come to me. But yeah, I&#8217;m really excited actually just to discuss it live and ask you a few questions, what the goals are and bring it back to me and be very lengthy. And maybe at the end of this call, or this recording, we will come up with a final solution, a way you&#8217;ll have to give it direction and go for it.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah. Yeah. I was actually looking back, you called it a BlogStorm.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />BlogStorm. Yeah. We were doing a brainstorm about everything around blogging. It&#8217;s a BlogStorm. Yeah.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />So we&#8217;re just going to go for it here. And I hope Ronald said we&#8217;ll put some ideas together, thoughts, just what&#8217;s on our mind. I&#8217;ll set the stage. There was a point where I took the blog off because some part of my brain said, oh, I wanted to focus on audio and have everybody focus on the audio when they get there. And of course, I started to look at the site and thought it felt, I think I wrote this somewhere, it felt naked. It was like, where&#8217;s a blog? This is conversational. This is community. This is what it&#8217;s all about. So in turn, we&#8217;re working on bringing back the blog to Do the Woo, and that&#8217;s where this came because I had another idea. I had an idea about a newsletter and all this stuff kind of meshed together and Ronald deals with my crazy thinking and my train of thoughts and stuff. I brought up this newsletter idea and only because I keep hacking away at that thing. I&#8217;ve done that for so many years and never really progressed. What are your thoughts? I mean, you gave me some feedback. We won&#8217;t go into a lot of the details there, but just give me a thought.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Yeah. The thought that came to mind is newsletters are great, but newsletters or anything, email notification of something that&#8217;s bigger. And so if you write a newsletter with long form, I dunno what is long form these days, but something that gives you everything in the newsletter, you don&#8217;t need to do anything other than read the newsletter. That&#8217;s great if you&#8217;re in the moment and in the moment of reading a particular topic, but also on a device that makes it pleasant to read it. And once it&#8217;s buried in your inbox, it&#8217;s kind of gone, difficult to get back and that moment when you send out hundreds of thousands of newsletters, what you see in the status within the first couple of minutes, you see a really high spike of the opening rate and then it sort of diminishes pretty quickly after that, even within the same 24 hours. Even if you have an intelligent system that sends the emails at the best time or thinks it&#8217;s the best time with the highest opening rate, I do always wonder what the engagement rate is. So in other words, you send a newsletter, you think I have a huge post, but how engaged are people who read your newsletter? If it&#8217;s a call to action to click through to something, that&#8217;s really easy, but maybe it&#8217;s like, oh, it&#8217;s an email from Bob. Okay, great. It&#8217;s quite long. I&#8217;m doing something else. I&#8217;m switching between 15 different tabs and different windows and other things are happening at the same time. Are you really absorbing the content and engaging it? It&#8217;s really difficult to do that. And so it&#8217;s great to have a notification, but maybe that notification should be, hey, there&#8217;s much more content in the blog and here&#8217;s your weekly reminder to explore and here are the things that have been happening, have been fed by our presenters and guests. And guess what? If you&#8217;re interested in coding, here&#8217;s a category, everything around coding, or here&#8217;s a category, everything around community and thought. And that got me thinking like, hey, how much content? We&#8217;re coming up to 500 podcasts now?</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah, yeah. This will probably be, I&#8217;m not exactly sure the number, but we&#8217;re at around 500 in the 530 somethings.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Oh, so we passed that. Yeah. Amazing. So apart from me, all the other super interesting guests, some of them I&#8217;ve interviewed as well in the past, they all have really interesting things to say that it would be great to have quotes, snippets, or even get them to write something on your blog. Anyway, that got me really quite excited about the opportunity and bringing back blogging, which is the core of WordPress.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah. And that&#8217;s what I mean. Like I said, I have Ronald there to smack me alongside the head. Every once in a while I get these little ideas and I&#8217;m doing them for maybe one specific reason or I&#8217;m thinking, how can I make this part better? And then I realize I have things inside there that are already bubbling on the site. One of the things you brought up, I&#8217;m going to flip back here, is you had brought up what Matt Mullenweg said and on his, I think he said it on his blog post about WordPress turning 21. And then I said it again in his talk at WordCamp Europe just a couple of months ago, and let&#8217;s say I pulled up the blog post and he gave 11 things that he&#8217;s just been thinking about. He says people should be thinking about one of them was blogging, commenting, and ping backs need to be fun. Static websites are fine, but dynamic ones are better. Almost every site would be improved by having a blog or a great blog. So when I looked at that, it was like I thought, man, back what, 2010 or so when I was blogging, that was kind of the heyday of blogging and everybody was commenting and it keeps nagging at me, this thing he said, and it&#8217;s not just what he said then, it was reaffirmation is what it was to me, what&#8217;s been on my mind when we started the new site, when we did the redesign to do the Woo. When we launched that in March and then officially at WordCamp Europe, we decided to open up comments again. And of course, that&#8217;s always a challenge. And I think there&#8217;s this thing inside of me that just, I won&#8217;t give up on it. Comments are there, there&#8217;s got to be something happening. So I&#8217;ve been publishing ping backs and stuff and some different things and it is true. It&#8217;s like there&#8217;s so many ideas and thoughts going through my head.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Yeah, I think you touched on something really important and that referencing to Matt, but it just occurred to me that WordPress is 21 years old and WordPress, not everybody started 21 years ago, but for 15 years we&#8217;ve had a number of new publishing platforms, mostly social media come, I mean they&#8217;re still here, they didn&#8217;t go away, but your audience might have moved to different platforms over time and definitely many, many, many more. And when you think of the next 15 years, are any of them still going to be there and relevant? But your blog will always be there. So you build up your diary, your journaling in a way over all those years and that&#8217;s owning that content as an asset is huge. So even if you don&#8217;t blog for the sake of SEO, it&#8217;s still within your own control that you can reuse on purpose and people can search for it and find different things. And I think that&#8217;s something that really, the longer we do this stuff, the more valuable it is that you really own that.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah, exactly. And for me, I think one of my challenges lately was my site BobWP.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />That was huge by the way, wasn&#8217;t it?</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah. And we were talking about that because I had my initial thoughts were kind of going back and forth between the two. So I would repurpose some of the content on Do the Woo over at BobWP.com, and as much as I thought that was a good strategy, it didn&#8217;t really play out as I thought. And of course, Ronald, when we talked, he hinted maybe that content should be under Do the Woo.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Can you describe a little bit of your first thought of the content strategy when you were doing BobWP</p>



<p>? What were you publishing and how was engagement? I know some of it was testing plugins and so on, and probably old versions that are totally irrelevant. That&#8217;s why you don&#8217;t feel it&#8217;s feasible anymore. But yeah, maybe you could share a little bit of it.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />So the whole thing with BobWP, what it&#8217;s always been, it&#8217;s always been a piece of something. And back in the day I would do tutorials and stuff, and that&#8217;s why a lot of this content no longer exists because it was really mostly about stuff that was at the time. And that stuff became outdated very quickly unless I went in and updated it, which I did. And when I actually separated the podcast that was originally started on BobWP, it was for that reason because I knew that I wanted to focus on Do the Woo. I wanted to build a brand more around that or build the buzz or get people directed to that. And so my strategy was always, I always had BobWP there and I did a little bit of blogging here and there, and then I came to the point where, like I said, I started thinking, well, should I start cross-promoting the two? Because a BobWP brand is known out there, which seemed like a good idea. My thought was that yeah, I could do a lot of back and forth because some people will go to BobWP and then I can send them over to Do the Woo, give them a snippet of that. Actually, it didn&#8217;t work as I strategically planned because there wasn&#8217;t as much traffic going to BobWP anymore because I let it mellow out, which was on purpose because I wanted my focus on Do the Woo. So that was how I kept looking at this and kept looking at this and I&#8217;ve actually made a decision going through all this. I&#8217;m at a point in life people can kind of say you&#8217;re at a certain age or you&#8217;re at a point in life where, okay, what&#8217;s going to be the next thing? Well, mine is really Do the Woo. It&#8217;s my focus. So I thought this is where I need to be all the time on Do the Woo because it&#8217;s always going to be, even the experiences I can share doing my own thing over however many years can always fit somewhere there. And as a result, I just recently made the decision to take down BobWP as a site and use my Gravatar profile, BobWP, basically as my website now for BobWP.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Your business card.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />And that was a long process and a lot of people have done that and I feel like that&#8217;s going to be the best thing I can now focus directly on Do the Woo. I moved some of the content back over from BobWP over on Do the Woo because it fits there and stuff. I just done some of the old posts and stuff. So that was that whole thinking through process. And in the middle of that we talked about it and stuff and we had, oh, I&#8217;m drawing a blank, Ronnie from Gravita and listening to him even occurred to me, this is such a great thing because it&#8217;s just I can send people where they want to go.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Yeah, it&#8217;s like a massive signpost that&#8217;s attached to on top of your head, isn&#8217;t it? Are you business? You have a pleasure, are you sending money or are you just curious who I am? And then there you go. Just go wherever you need to go. Yeah, just one thing.<br />Nice. Do you question for you then is do you feel that BobWP might have served a different audience to where you are now with Woo? I know you&#8217;ve moved some of the content, so there&#8217;s a little bit of an overlap, but I wonder if there&#8217;s even a strategy where you say, Hey, there&#8217;s some probably personal stuff that might not always be suitable for the Woo audience and even if I write this one blog post per year, it doesn&#8217;t matter. It&#8217;s just there. So I have a space that can run it that can publish and that&#8217;s okay. And for everything else there is Do the Woo.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah, I thought about that and I want the BobWP brand now to be the gateway to Do the Woo. So that&#8217;s why I kept thinking when I looked at the site, it&#8217;s like I had people, you can go to do the Woo, you can see where I do this and all this stuff, but I felt like it was its own little piece there and honestly I started to realize that I was trying to force myself, it felt like the right move something in my gut and that&#8217;s kind of how I&#8217;ve always done things and maybe sometimes I regretted or something, but for now I just feel like because I basically have some content somewhere still on my WordPress dot com blog and I can always revive that sometime.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Yeah, it probably makes a great archive that even 10 years looks like I did that is a photo of me and whatever and then it&#8217;s still there. I think that becomes really a nice way your own tool of bringing back something that might be relevant even later, even if the minute on something. I also have another question then. When you think about the content for Do the Woo, how do you think about that? So do you want to write for your audience or how do you want them to engage and bring them in and get them to engage with to Do the Woo brand?</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />That is the fun part to think about, but the challenge I think for me, the site where I&#8217;ve moved my whole mindset is that blog becomes an arm of what Do the Woo stands for. And that is having hosts that have already shown interest come in and write guest posts and they can or having even a guest come in and do it. But as you and I talked about before and I think you alluded to a little bit is how that conversation can be carried from a audio podcast or somebody that talks about something in a podcast and says, I&#8217;m doing this five months later they do it. Do they want to come in and write a little bit about it</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Or what came out of it? What&#8217;s the outcome of that initial podcast?</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />It can tie in really easy and make this circle back and forth between the content and how to get people there and engaged. Aside from thinking of creating a forum or some membership or all the crazy stuff that&#8217;s available to us that I don&#8217;t even want to touch on It is it&#8217;s all through that commenting and how to get people, how to drive them there. And that&#8217;s through social, it&#8217;s different ways. There&#8217;s different things that I&#8217;ve discovered are Jetpack now that we&#8217;ve used that we&#8217;re using that for a lot of our stuff that there are things I want to test with that and try to drive people back to leaving comments and having conversation. There&#8217;s some stuff I even talked with somebody from Jetpack at WordCamp Europe and we can do a couple ideas back and forth and we&#8217;re continue that conversation. So I&#8217;m thinking of some different things. I&#8217;ve had a few other people suggest things or actually ask for things that this might be an interesting way to leave a comment and how that can without giving any of a way, I don&#8217;t want to say I&#8217;m going to do it and then I don&#8217;t do it, but getting people to go between the podcasts and the blog and keeping that conversation flowing in some way and somehow interjecting the comments in all of that. And it&#8217;s not going to be an easy task</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Different ways, isn&#8217;t it? Because you have on one hand you really want to engage with the podcast, you want to listen to every word that&#8217;s being said, but there are times when you might also just want read the LDR of that podcast and I&#8217;d like to say, okay, that podcast probably is not for me, but I&#8217;m glad I&#8217;ve read the headline into it. Are you going to commit yourself to a soccer match for 90 minutes or almost two hours, which is probably a lot of kicking balls back and forth. Or you&#8217;re going to say, no, give me the five minute highlight, that&#8217;s enough and if the match absolutely fantastic with quality soccer football, I&#8217;m going to go in and watch the full thing. Or if it&#8217;s a team or a category that you support, I&#8217;m definitely want to listen them know what the whole thing.<br />So I think the block is also a little bit of a bridge between the full commitment or just a really short version of that or if you have been intrigued by the podcast, a blog could be a way to express your gratitude, your follow up question, sharing it with somebody else because from there you have to learn the links to the podcast. I mean there&#8217;s so many different ideas to really use the podcast as the center of it all that again, Gravatar, it&#8217;s signposting to everything and everything around that particular topic and maybe write about references of other speakers or podcast made in the past, which you may not have discussed in the podcast itself. So I get really excited about this though.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />You&#8217;re right because when I go through any transcript and it&#8217;s kind of what I was doing with BobWP a little bit is it&#8217;s like one question is a post in itself. Somebody has given you a direct answer to one specific problem or one specific challenge, but within those transcripts there is tons of information that can be pulled out and be very in themselves are little nuggets I call &#8217;em gathered throughout that are standalone because they really tell you something right there, maybe even something you can take action on or something. And by itself sometimes you miss those things because like you said, you&#8217;re listening to this long podcast for 45 minutes and that little piece comes in there and then it&#8217;s gone</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />And you want to maybe reference that to somebody else. It&#8217;s like, oh, was that 23 minutes or 28 minutes and then it&#8217;s kind of lost. You&#8217;re going to listen to the whole thing, maybe busy, but if the highlights are set of reference, quote that into a blog post. Yeah, that&#8217;s a good way to share that though. I was going to ask probably two questions. I know one of the biggest reservations to start</p>



<p>a blog is your time commitment and I think in our discussion I&#8217;ve touched a little bit on that&#8217;s like don&#8217;t commit yourself to a weekly or a daily something just whenever it&#8217;s right, whenever you feel like it. And quite often a newsletter when you say, Hey, I have a weekly newsletter. That&#8217;s pretty tough to always fill a newsletter with something inside for every single week to the point that people actually might even be turned off by it because it&#8217;s the same stuff you read five times over everywhere you in the WordPress ecosystem. So on one hand you have the time commitment, which is really tough, especially if you have busy schedule and you have five recordings in one day. How can you commit yourself to writing these blog posts? Maybe there are hack tools and then the second part is publishing, and I know you alluded to that earlier. How do you get people then to read it and how do you get to publish it? I&#8217;m glad that you mentioned Jetpack. They have some publishing tools across many different networks.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />And I think that is the challenge because nothing absolutely drives me more nuts than going to read a post and at the end of the post they say, we would love for you to leave a comment over on X and they give you a link about this post and I&#8217;m like, now you&#8217;re making me go back over there. But everybody tends to do that because that&#8217;s where they feel all the conversations. But also it&#8217;s a huge mess of stuff that just goes by quickly. I mean you need to do it, but the commitment I think some people spend on social is way beyond. I mean even though they feel there&#8217;s a lot of engagement, they&#8217;re looking at their views, this is viewed by 10,000 people, this is great. Well how did that all play out? What did you really get out of those 10,000 views? What engagement was there?</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />When you publish something to Twitter to X to Facebook and Instagram, it would be nice to have a link to those particular posts but also a little counter of what the engagement is on those or whether like 15 comments or 200 comments, it could be quite intriguing to actually go and discover that or even have some of that be reposted into the comments section of the blog to sort of bridge that data. I dunno how easy that is, but that really good truth for thought, what you just shared</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />And somebody just shared recently a person that is using the Fediverse pulling in content and stuff, but on their site they&#8217;re pulling in all basically their feed of everything they say out there and it&#8217;s all living on their site as a one page is a long feed. I know that next time anybody&#8217;s at a WordCamp and you want to have a nice lengthy conversation about all of this kind of social stuff, I&#8217;m find Robert Windish from side, he&#8217;s thinking, how can we make WordPress a social platform and that means your blog and stuff like that. And he has a lot of really, I mean he will talk your ear off about it, but he has a lot of interesting ideas and he&#8217;s kind of on the mission himself and that kind of brings it in, how do you tie this all together? How do you still make your site the place where people will go to? And I think we&#8217;ve gotten out of that habit, the</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Data liberation project, probably not excelling as far as we want. It&#8217;s not always about moving side to a different platform, but it&#8217;s also pulling in information from other platform into your own side, whether it&#8217;s private or in case of WooCommerce, it could be moving data from shipping platforms or accounting platforms but also public comments, relevant comment from social media into your own play. And I think again, what I said earlier that if everything you did or published is on WordPress that you can totally control with your own tools and what it looks like, how amazing is that? How many issues would would&#8217;ve prevent it? I think people will start to realize that as things mature, WordPress is always there and will always be there, even selling a hundred year plan. So I&#8217;m pretty confident that that&#8217;s going to be the case</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />And I think is there&#8217;s, even though some people really dedicate themselves to maybe a certain platform or feel that even though they still have a site that more and more people are starting to think just can&#8217;t go on or continue this way, there&#8217;s a bit of frustration I think on some people&#8217;s level and a bit, I mean I&#8217;ve even cut down my time on social just because I feel like I&#8217;m just, yeah, it&#8217;s, it&#8217;s too much anymore. I still depend on RSS, that&#8217;s how I keep up on everything is my R SS feed and that I go in and check all the time. That&#8217;s the easiest way for me to do it and still the best way</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Controlling what comes into your inbox, what you read, what newsletter you subscribed, which block do you want to get into your feed. It&#8217;s super important that you take control over your own life. I noticed that with my own certain social media profile, how destructive it can be and we dunno quite what the result is going to be in 10, 20 years time and how their attention is going to be. But these are all challenges that we start to see the tip of the iceberg. I just want to go back because we brush over that creating the content, like writing the content and I know AI tools are big and they&#8217;ve been around for quite a few years and blogging you could almost just do it with a couple of prompts. What are your thoughts on that using AI tools in the broadest way?</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />For me personally, I don&#8217;t use it to create any original content. I&#8217;ve sometimes asked for a few ideas and even then it, it&#8217;s very rarely where I use it the most is repurposing content and that means existing content and I have exactly that through the transcripts. So when I mean my transcripts to give you an idea of my workflow with the transcripts, which makes sense, that leads into other content is when I get a transcript, I have it done through rev.com through their AI and I go through and I correct some of the names brands and then I take that same transcript and I run it through chat GPT and I tell it to just find any spelling errors or small grammatical errors. Sometimes you have to be careful with the prompt or it&#8217;ll actually start eliminating parts of the transcript. So I try to keep it to just really small things, which that usually fixes quite well and from that I&#8217;ll ask it to give me one or two paragraph intro to it and it&#8217;s never written exactly like I want, so I use it as a basis to just do something and then I&#8217;ll ask it for some key takeaways, which is where I think it is a lot better at and that&#8217;s the best use of it is on existing content, not on creating original content.<br />And then I would go through and make sure it reads and take out the word delve, which AI seems to love so much. Everybody delves into everything and it just drives me. But that&#8217;s where personally and I think where it works best, I&#8217;m at an advantage because I basically have original content through the audio. I just need to have that transcribed and then work with that content. But original stuff still for me personally has to come from my brain.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />You could teach the LMS to be more like Bob and if you keep teaching it with your prompts probably can get much better in weeks and months to come, but that does take time. It needs to learn that as well. But that&#8217;s really interesting. I mean even just a few years back I recall you would send off your recording to be transcribed by somebody and it would be quite an expensive server and compare that now with these A alarms it&#8217;s an amazing value and so much faster and almost instant.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Oh yeah, and it&#8217;s something, yeah, for years and years I paid Rev to do human transcripts and that budget became higher and higher as I did more content obviously and more podcasts.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Right. Then a little bit unpacking the part of publishing to where your audiences are, where your tribe is at, but I know in your case you have so many new audiences and communities across the globe speaking different languages. Do you track that? Do you analyze that or you don&#8217;t even go that fast right here it is. There are a few ways to find it.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah, I&#8217;ve tried to do it and there&#8217;s never a rhyme or reason for whatever happens with any content. I mean a certain spike in listen and sometimes you try to track it and you think was there somebody that just happened to share? It&#8217;s out there somewhere that you don&#8217;t know about and there&#8217;s no way you can track it because suddenly it&#8217;s just out of the blue you&#8217;ll have five, six times as many listens one day as you did for the last five days or something and you can go and look at that topic and often the topic doesn&#8217;t make sense either what made this happen or was it shared internally somewhere? How do you</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Feel about others writing on your blog or for you, is that something, I know you talked about a little bit, but what are your thoughts around that? How far do you want to extend it? You want to keep it only within co-host or anybody that&#8217;s been on the podcast and even to the point where it&#8217;s almost could monetize the way because of anybody that publish on your platform with the audience that this build up there is some value to that.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah, one of the wonderful things I have is I have a group of co-hosts. If I have an idea and this is how the newsletter thing is exactly what I did with that and I can bounce an idea off and when I bounce the idea of bringing a blog back right away, several of them were like, oh, I&#8217;d love to guess both. Which it&#8217;s not easy to get people to guess posts because it&#8217;s tough enough for them to write content for themselves. So for sure the hosts to me a no-br</p>



<p>ainer, especially if they want to follow up or write about one of the shows they&#8217;ve recently done. The guests almost are a second no-brainer because the opportunity to give them to follow up on something or to add to the conversation say, wow, after the conversation I thought about this one piece or I thought maybe they want to elaborate on one thing they were asked, they answered it one minute, but they have a lot more to say. So those kinds of things, I think it&#8217;s ideal. The podcast is run by the community. I mean I do all the grunt work, but I host you. I bring in guest hosts and all these guests and I want the blog to be that too as far as open guest spots, but I&#8217;m going to be very selective. I don&#8217;t want tutorials, I don&#8217;t want them writing about their product. It&#8217;s not</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />The audience that you&#8217;ve built up. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And get the feedback as well in the bottom of the blog have some sort of rating tool that&#8217;s used for how would you rate this content? And so they kind of use that as a way of working where depending on the number of readers and the feedback that you get is better provide the content that readers are interested in. The other thing I saw that crossed my mind working with user levels within WordPress publisher and editor admin, whether certain speakers who might want to follow up on things or even add a supportive blog post, whether they have some sort of levels that they can add and own that piece of content.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah, I guess I could say get in the groove of how I do this with the post and I still want it to be that community oriented piece and I want them to feel like they have a bit of control over that. So it&#8217;s an interesting thing to think about because I think that&#8217;s an important part.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Yeah, it&#8217;s that community that you build up and it&#8217;s also back to the comments and empowering some writers to control and manage the comments and the conversation and that&#8217;s like bringing that back. It then becomes not quite a forum, but it is that engagement not just between the author and a few comments and that probably brings in more folks to then want to comment because they can get the audience with the speaker, with the writer and leave some nice words or ask for the question, what did you mean we did quote or does also apply to X, Y and Z. The other cool thing I found with the Jetpack tool, creating the social media images, so when you publish that something did you see that you add your featured image and a bit of text and within the post itself it generates a social media image that&#8217;s formatted for the different platform. Again, it&#8217;s one of those little hacks that just make so much easier to create a content, publish it and not be dragged down like, oh, I need to do this, I need to do that. And then weeks past you still haven&#8217;t published it because having that threshold as lowest as possible direct from public I think is key to just keep going. It doesn&#8217;t matter if it&#8217;s not perfect, even if it&#8217;s a light mistake, update it. Yours.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Exactly. And</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Just going back on the newsletters, because we have to bring that back in because that was the original idea is like I&#8217;m going to start with a newsletter and now we, instead of really focusing on blog, blog block and all the advantages, there&#8217;s still a place for newsletters. Where do you see that sort of fall into place?</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />When I visualize in my head for a newsletter and ideally what I like is I want to keep as much of this content on the site and drive people and have it as a teaser. And of course as it has been, or I guess you don&#8217;t call it newsletter, but when people get notified of a post, I mean just knowing this is a content and you can go back through and listen to what you want to read, what you want, but also is how to have that content go out automatically but also be able to add a little custom content to it to make sure that people, this is how you can more easily comment or by doing this and make it a little bit more visible. Add little snippets of something in there that</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Quotes from the community like, oh, Ron said this on X and that followed up in a comment here and that&#8217;ve got some great conversation going, get engaged in this if you care about this stuff or here&#8217;s a quote, I got the community talking and it was relevant here and there. And yeah, it also a good way to introduce other platforms within the own ecosystem. If you have a guest speaker from a Woo ecosystem or from a third party developer, it&#8217;s nice to be able to reference that in a newsletter I get.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />And I think there&#8217;s a lot of potential, but I don&#8217;t want to make the newsletter, like you said, this is kind of more of a prompt the newsletter. And what I really want to do is when I get this all in place and things moving along, my next endeavor is to get Matt Mullenweg on. I&#8217;d love to just talk with him about blogging, comment and ping backs</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />And did you now who is also fantastic, I know if that he should bring in a guest Tim Ferris and I know he and Matt have shared so many ideas around blogging, like long form short form. Also Seth Godin and I&#8217;ve written to some podcasts around how easy it is to share something or not at all really the thought process behind blogging and I think Matt is pretty good at that. He can share something very short, one paragraph and it&#8217;s out there or some really long bits of tech, but it&#8217;s the short ones that I&#8217;m going to take way more time to think that through. Very easy to talk and write paragraphs and paragraphs. At some point people will disengage and you kind of lost them, but keeping it super short and to the point that&#8217;s real.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />And I think that&#8217;s kind of what I&#8217;m thinking about too is a lot of this and I think the site is ripe for that because there&#8217;s a lot of content we can share that is short and to the point rather than just going on and on and giving 11 tips of whatever. I mean those have its place.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Yeah. Here&#8217;s another thing, you&#8217;re building up international communities and having the content of tribe or even the blog post, but having it with Google now, it&#8217;s so easy to have your full page translated as well. It&#8217;s almost instant. Well, it is instant. Which is a great way to repurpose content.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />It is.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />And both ways, if you have somebody writing in a lanugage that it also accessible to English speakers or to German speaker and yeah, that&#8217;s probably something that&#8217;s not talked about a lot, but super easy.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />That would be really interesting, like to open that up. We&#8217;ve done that to some effect with the one podcast where we have the community come in and talk about their own WordPress community and their locale and in their native language, and so they&#8217;re actually talking to their community. That&#8217;s another whole piece of it. And I think it is, you&#8217;re right, I know there&#8217;s podcasts in the space that does the podcast in several different languages. They actually have somebody do it in four or five languages. A little bit of the news, WordPress news, and I think there&#8217;s something there to be looked at for sure because we&#8217;re a huge community.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />I haven&#8217;t checked the figures, but I would sort of maybe 60, 75% of Woo users don&#8217;t live in a country where English is the first language. So maybe two thirds who don&#8217;t have English foreign language, they speak English, but to truly engage with them anyway, I guess we&#8217;ve come to the conclusion that blogging is pretty cool. I think there is blogging for anybody for yourself, whether it&#8217;s a personal diary that you have public and then you have your personal one that you keep private, whether it&#8217;s for yourself or for your business, for your ecommerce site. I think blogging for the sake of SEO definitely has value, but I don&#8217;t think that should be the prime goal to block call because then you end up in not very pretty or very well organized content to hit certain keywords and I think that puts people off. But write it for your, like you do with social media, keep it short to the point with a link to your product, to your podcast, wherever you want people to go to or the call to action. I think that probably has a good reason to consider it again.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Yeah, for sure. And definitely I think we&#8217;ve touched on enough different thing given our thoughts. Some of the direction Do the Woo might go. So if there is not a perfect post to come in and comment, anybody listening to this, this is a post because we&#8217;ve talked about a lot of things and I&#8217;m sure everybody that&#8217;s listened to it has actually thought, well, yeah, that makes sense, or nope, this is the way I would do it or this is how it works for me.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />And maybe that&#8217;s the comment, call out what are the forms of blog posts or good examples of other forms of blog posts like rich content, whether it snippet the codes or a gallery photos or sound snippets or maybe a poll to get voting. That all can all be part of a blog pro. It doesn&#8217;t always have to be just paragraph or words.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Right, exactly. So we&#8217;re going to encourage everybody listening now to come and leave a comment.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />I&#8217;m inspired now. I&#8217;m going to revisit my own site. I haven&#8217;t touched since I started working at quite a few years now. It&#8217;s all very well preaching about it, but maybe we should all get back to blogging. I think it&#8217;s a good way.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Well this has been great and yeah, everybody hope you enjoyed it and let us know your thoughts. You&#8217;ll go into the post, leave a comment.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />It&#8217;s been a great Blogstorm, Bob</p>



<p>. Yeah,</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;ll be right alongside there, at least in spirit one way or another.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Yeah, I need to write one of the first posts or co-write to see what.</p>



<p>BobWP:<br />Alright, Ronald, thanks everyone for listening and yeah, let us know what you think about all this stuff we were talking about. Alright, thank you all.</p>



<p>Ronald:<br />Thanks Bob.</p>
</div>




<p>In this episode of <strong><em>The WordPress Way</em></strong>, hosts <strong>BobWP</strong> and <strong>Ronald Gijsel</strong> kick up a blogstorm. What&#8217;s that?</p>



<p>Soon here on this site you will see the blog as it returns and becomes a integral part of this builder and business community. BobWP and Ronald started brainstorming what the main goal of this blog would be offline, but it quickly ended when Ronald suggested we take it public. </p>



<p>So that&#8217;s it. A live and fun blogstorm.</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Takeaways</h2>



<p><strong>Return to Blogging</strong>: BobWP is considering bringing back the blog on Do the Woo after realizing the site felt incomplete without it.</p>



<p><strong>Engagement through Newsletters</strong>: In our case, newsletters should serve as prompts to drive people to the blog for more content, rather than being long-form content themselves.</p>



<p><strong>Content Strategy for Do the Woo</strong>: The blog will act as an extension of the podcast, with hosts and guests contributing posts that complement the podcast episodes.</p>



<p><strong>Community-Driven Content</strong>: The podcast and blog will be community-oriented, encouraging interaction and engagement through comments and guest contributions.</p>



<p>I<strong>mportance of Comments</strong>: BobWP believes in the value of comments and is exploring ways to drive more engagement and conversation through blog comments.</p>



<p><strong>Balancing Social Media and Blog Content</strong>: There&#8217;s a need to balance content between social media platforms and the blog, ensuring the blog remains the central hub of activity.</p>



<p><strong>Leveraging Transcripts for Content</strong>: Transcripts from podcast episodes can be repurposed into blog posts, highlighting key takeaways and providing additional value to the audience.</p>



<p><strong>Using AI for Content Repurposing</strong>: AI tools can assist in repurposing existing content, such as cleaning up transcripts and generating summaries, but not for creating original content.</p>



<p><strong>Embracing Multi-language Content</strong>: Considering the international nature of the audience, there&#8217;s potential to explore multi-language content to reach a broader audience.</p>



<p><strong>Personal Brand and Focus</strong>: BobWP is consolidating his efforts under the Do the Woo brand, using his Gravatar profile as the primary personal identifier.</p>



<p><strong>Encouraging Guest Contributions</strong>: There’s a strong interest in having guest posts from hosts and podcast guests to further enrich the blog’s content.</p>



<p><strong>Value of Owning Content</strong>: Emphasizes the long-term value of owning content through a blog, as opposed to relying solely on transient social media platforms.</p>



<p><strong>Utilizing Tools like Jetpack</strong>: Jetpack&#8217;s tools, such as social media image generation and cross-platform publishing, can simplify the process of maintaining and promoting the blog.</p>



<p><strong>Driving Engagement through Follow-ups</strong>: Engaging the community by following up on podcast topics with blog posts, encouraging discussion, and fostering a deeper connection with the audience.</p>



<p><strong>Building a Central Content Hub</strong>: The blog should serve as the central hub for all content, with social media and newsletters acting as feeders to drive traffic back to the site.</p>";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:7:"pubDate";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:31:"Tue, 23 Jul 2024 09:05:43 +0000";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}s:32:"http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/";a:1:{s:7:"creator";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:5:"BobWP";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}}}}i:15;a:6:{s:4:"data";s:13:"
	
	
	
	
	
	
";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";s:5:"child";a:2:{s:0:"";a:5:{s:5:"title";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:71:"WordPress.org blog: WP Briefing: Episode 84: A WordPress 6.6 Sneak Peek";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"guid";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:53:"https://wordpress.org/news/?post_type=podcast&p=17539";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:4:"link";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:73:"https://wordpress.org/news/2024/07/episode-84-a-wordpress-6-6-sneak-peek/";s:7:"attribs";a:0:{}s:8:"xml_base";s:0:"";s:17:"xml_base_explicit";b:0;s:8:"xml_lang";s:0:"";}}s:11:"description";a:1:{i:0;a:5:{s:4:"data";s:26873:"<p>Join WordPress Executive Director, Josepha Haden Chomphosy, as she offers an exclusive preview of the recently released WordPress 6.6, accompanied by special guest Meher Bala, the release&#8217;s coordinator. Don’t miss this opportunity for an insider’s look!</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Credits</h2>



<p>Host:&nbsp;<a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/chanthaboune/">Josepha Haden Chomphosy</a><br />Guest:&nbsp;<a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/meher/">Meher Bala</a><br />Editor:&nbsp;<a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/adamatdayone/">Adam Daly</a><br />Logo:&nbsp;<a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/javiarce/">Javier Arce</a><br />Production:&nbsp;<a href="https://profiles.wordpress.org/bjmcsherry/">Brett McSherry</a><br />Song: Fearless First by Kevin MacLeod</p>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Show Notes</h2>



<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><a href="https://wordpress.org/download/releases/6-6/">WordPress 6.6 Download</a></li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/core/">Make WordPress &#8211; Core</a>
<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><a href="https://wordpress.slack.com/archives/C02RQBWTW">WordPress Core Slack</a></li>
</ul>
</li>



<li><strong>Small List of Big Things</strong>
<ul class="wp-block-list">
<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/community/2024/07/04/first-time-attendees/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">First-Time Attendees: A Key Metric of Success for WordPress Events</a>&nbsp;</li>



<li>The&nbsp;<a href="https://make.wordpress.org/docs/2023/04/25/monthly-online-docs-team-contributor-day-starts-april-2023/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Docs team holds an online Contributor Day</a>&nbsp;every fourth Tuesday.</li>



<li>Reminder:&nbsp;<a href="https://learn.wordpress.org/online-workshops/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Online workshops</a>&nbsp;are live sessions where you can learn alongside other WordPress enthusiasts.</li>



<li><a href="https://make.wordpress.org/media-corps/2024/07/03/recap-of-the-media-corps-briefing-on-wordpress-6-6/" target="_blank" rel="noreferrer noopener">Recap of the Media Corps Briefing on WordPress 6.6</a>&nbsp;</li>
</ul>
</li>



<li>Have a question you’d like answered? Submit them to&nbsp;<a href="mailto:wpbriefing@WordPress.org">WPBriefing@WordPress.org</a>.</li>
</ul>



<h2 class="wp-block-heading">Transcript</h2>



<span id="more-17539"></span>



<p>[00:00:00]&nbsp;<strong>Josepha:</strong>&nbsp;Hello, everyone, and welcome to the WordPress Briefing, the podcast where you can catch quick explanations of some of the ideas behind the WordPress open source project and the community around it, as well as get a small list of big things coming up in the next two weeks. I’m your host, Josepha Haden Chomphosy. Here we go!&nbsp;</p>



<p>[00:00:28] (Intro Music)&nbsp;</p>



<p><span>[00:00:40]&nbsp;<strong>Josepha:</strong>&nbsp;</span>Last week, we released WordPress 6.6, and I had a chance to chat with a long-time contributor and member of the Release Squad about it.&nbsp;Today, I have with me Meher, and she was, well I guess I will let her tell us what she did with the release, but at the time of this recording, yesterday we had the WordPress 6.6 release, codenamed &#8216;Dorsey,&#8217; and so Meher, welcome to the WordPress Briefing.</p>



<p>[00:01:05] <strong>Meher:</strong> Hi, thank you for inviting me. It&#8217;s nice to be here.</p>



<p><span>[00:01:09]&nbsp;<strong>Josepha:</strong>&nbsp;Why don&#8217;t you tell us a little bit about yourself, what you do in the WordPress project, how long you&#8217;ve been contributing, and then the role that you played in our big, big mid-year release?</span></p>



<p>[00:01:19] <strong>Meher:</strong> So my name is Meher. I&#8217;m a front-end developer. I&#8217;m also a CEO of KDC. I&#8217;m also a codable expert in WordPress. I started with contributing into the marketing field. Then, slowly, for 5.6, I got to be on the release squad, learned about training, about how the release goes, process happens. From that time onwards, I&#8217;ve been part of marketing or, basically, I&#8217;ve been part of the marketing team for all the releases. For 6.6, I picked to do the Release Coordinator, something different, something new, wanting to know what goes into it.&nbsp;</p>



<p>[00:02:03] <strong>Josepha:</strong> That is a big leap from like hanging out in marketing to going to be the Release Coordinator. Before we get into the release itself, just what made you think to yourself, I would like to do that? I would like to stand up and wrangle all of these contributors across the world. Make sure we get a release out?</p>



<p>[00:02:20] <strong>Meher:</strong> I wanted to try something new. Like even in WordCamp, each role is different. So, even in the release, I wanted to try each different things. And like 5.6, I was in documentation. Then, I was in marketing. So then I got used to marketing, so I stick with my, no, I stuck with marketing. </p>



<p>[00:02:39] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Yeah.</p>



<p>[00:02:40] <strong>Meher:</strong> So this time, I want to try something different, and I want to see, you know, how easy was it to be a Release Coordinator because it&#8217;s a Release Coordinator, see, you know, it&#8217;s, it&#8217;s a like a big thing coordinating so many people so many different teams going on, working together, and so yeah, it was fun.</p>



<p>[00:02:58] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Great. I&#8217;m glad that you found it fun. I always worry when people make big shifts. I&#8217;m like, did we put enough documentation to make it clear? Are they going to find it easy to get started or not? And I think you did a really great job with it. So congratulations, since that happened just yesterday, less than 24 hours ago.</p>



<p>[00:03:16] <strong>Meher:</strong> Yes, less than 24 hours.</p>



<p>[00:03:21] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Yeah, yeah. So, from your position as the Release Coordinator, what are the biggest, like, one or two features that you really were excited to see get in this release?</p>



<p>[00:03:32] <strong>Meher:</strong> Oh, one of the biggest features was the style override patterns.</p>



<p>[00:03:37] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Oh, yeah.</p>



<p>[00:03:38] <strong>Meher:</strong> Which I found very useful because a lot of people are using patterns. So, you know, patterns override; if you wanna change something on a specific page, it&#8217;s really useful then just to, you know, recreate a second pattern and then to match up and all. And second, which I liked as a user, was the publish box on the post becoming very clear, very, you know, cluster-free, very minimalistic, and just so comfortable that a normal user will actually understand what is there instead of going to each dropdown and figuring out what needs to be done. So, for me, I think as a developer and user, these two are the fun features, which I like, which 6.5 had, so. There are many other features as well. These are the two great features.</p>



<p>[00:04:28] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Yeah. I mean, I don&#8217;t think that anyone can argue about the importance of making things a little easier to see, a little easier to use. It&#8217;s been a little bit since WordPress was like fall into it easy to use. I feel like we have been the easiest of the robust CMS systems for like a long time. I know I said CMS systems. That&#8217;s like saying pin number. I know that the S in CMS is systems, but anyway, that notwithstanding, we&#8217;ve been the easiest of the complex solutions for a long time, and I think it&#8217;s always great when we, when we take a moment to be like, what could we make a bit easier to just like, no instructions required you get in there and you can tell like, what any individual thing will do without necessarily, like you said, having to go into drop downs and reading a bunch of stuff a little guesswork is okay. And also, it&#8217;s clear that none of it is dangerous. And so I think that&#8217;s, I think that&#8217;s a a good change myself. So, I agree with your assessment.</p>



<p>[00:05:27] <strong>Josepha:</strong> So the style override patterns, that&#8217;s part of the suite of design tools that we&#8217;re pulling together, right?&nbsp;</p>



<p>[00:05:33] <strong>Meher:</strong> Yes.</p>



<p>[00:05:34] <strong>Josepha:</strong> in your experience, you said you&#8217;re the CEO of your company, like in your experience, does that feel like something that&#8217;s super useful for agencies or particularly useful for freelancers, or should it generally be useful for everyone?</p>



<p>[00:05:47] <strong>Meher:</strong> It will be useful from a small business point to a freelancer as well because we always try, like, in each page, we always, you know, there is some bits repeated, you know, so, patterns makes it easier, and syndicate pattern makes it more easier so that you can just duplicate and have one place to change. And, like, you have ten pages, you have one pattern across ten pages. The 11th page, you want the same pattern, but little change in that. It&#8217;s easier. It&#8217;s good because you can just change on that page, one particular thing and still go in the parent and change other things to reflect in that. So it will be very helpful for freelancers, small agencies. I do see big agencies take advantage of it. So overall, it should help everyone.</p>



<p>[00:06:35] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Good. Good. I, for one, isn&#8217;t it great when we can get a feature out that mostly is going to help everyone. But I have been especially interested in the features that we&#8217;re trying to get out that help that kind of like small to medium agency area. I feel like we have a lot of folks in the WordPress community who do exactly what you&#8217;re talking about. You&#8217;re getting something together. You have a mostly what you need across your site. You have one style that&#8217;s out there, but there&#8217;s this one area that you want to have a little bit more personality or a little less personality, depending on what your client is looking for, like this one is applying for jobs, and it needs to be a little less exciting or whatever it is.</p>



<p>[00:07:13] <strong>Josepha:</strong> I think that&#8217;s great that we have that option. So you don&#8217;t have to try to, I don&#8217;t know, hack your way through that. I know that we&#8217;re not a super get-in-there-and hack-on-it sort of group anymore these days, but I love that we still have that feeling of we&#8217;re gonna, we&#8217;re going to make this a safe hacking space for you. Just get in there and make it work. So that&#8217;s excellent. Excellent. So for you, then, personally, cause you wear a lot of hats, you&#8217;ve your front-end developer; you&#8217;re running your company, you&#8217;re working, you&#8217;re a codable expert. You&#8217;ve got all these things. So from your perspective, what is the thing that got into this release that was a surprising, like a diamond in the rough for you, like a surprising good feature when you just thought it was like an important feature at some point? Was there one that seemed like it was a good idea but became a great idea by the time it was out?</p>



<p>[00:08:00] <strong>Meher:</strong> Oh, I would say style variations because I did not expect the final style variation to be what it is. A theme developer can create the theme, can add styles, can add fonts, can give different design elements to the theme as a normal user when they when someone wants to just pull up a website, but they&#8217;re not good in design, or they don&#8217;t know which font to use. They choose which font, but then it doesn&#8217;t work. So if the theme provides an easy option just to shift the different styles they&#8217;re using and combining with the fonts. It is a much bigger opportunity for everyone because a normal user can just, they have a black and white site. I want to shift to a colorful site. Just go and see what the theme art has given you and shift it. So I think that I was surprised and I like the outcome. I&#8217;m sure my blogger friends also will like it because then they don&#8217;t have to depend on a designer to you know, give them color schemes and stuff.</p>



<p>[00:09:01] <strong>Josepha:</strong> Yes. Yeah. So unrelated. It&#8217;s only, it&#8217;s kind of related. I shouldn&#8217;t say it&#8217;s unrelated. It&#8217;s all about WordPress. And now it&#8217;s about color palettes. So, I have a new design on my blog. And unfortunately I am the sort of person that does need a designer to tell me what I meant by the thing I thought. <span>And so, like, I had this idea of the sort of color palette that I wanted and was searching for color palettes inside themes, which I was not succeeding at.</span> And eventually I had a designer who was happy to help you figure this out and get something out there. And they got me something that&#8217;s absolutely perfect. It&#8217;s got an excellent color palette and they redid some images for me. So it looks nice and hip and feels kind of modern. I think it&#8217;s great. But the one thing that I consistently felt confident to mess with while I was in there, because I think they did some custom work in there too, is all of the stuff that&#8217;s included in style variations. Like, I&#8217;m not touching colors because I can&#8217;t put colors together to save my life. But I was pleasantly surprised also by that particular feature. It gives you a feeling of I can change the face of this through the fonts or whatever it is. And I think that&#8217;s a nice, a nice thing.</p>
